Germany looks to step up coal exit timetable • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany looks to step up coal exit timetable

#21

Post by _n_b_ » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:14 AM UTC

Tenoke wrote: post #13

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this isn't a very popular opinion, but I've always thought that was a hugely stupid idea in the first place. Instead of shutting down nuclear power plants, we should have doubled down on them and spent more money on research to make them safer (as I understand it, there's still many unexplored concepts to make nuclear power much safer and reduce nuclear waste) and more efficient. The sad truth is, that decisio…

>I know this isn't a very popular opinion, but I've always thought that was a hugely stupid idea in the first place. Instead of shutting down nuclear power plants, we should have doubled down on them and spent more money on research to make them safer (as I understand it, there's still many unexplored concepts to make nuclear power much safer and reduce nuclear waste) and more efficient. It's a very common opinion am…

I make my living off of the splitting of atoms, so the opinions I hear are not reflective of the broader population. It's always interesting to hear what people in the wider-world think. A big part of the perception problem, I think, is that people don't really spend a lot of time to do significant research about how power is made. This is understandable--the power industry is kind of setup to keep the generation side hidden (both physically and figuratively). All most people really need to know is that when they plug it in to the wall, electricity will flow from somewhere and their vacuum (or whatever) will work. I suppose that's something that needs to change.

I also wish it were more practical for interested people to tour operating nuclear power plants. They're amazing feats of engineering and operations--and that's very evident everywhere you look at most plants--but they're not so easy to visit for most people.

Re: Germany looks to step up coal exit timetable

#22

Post by mikkom » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:16 AM UTC

gallexme wrote: post #12

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this isn't a very popular opinion, but I've always thought that was a hugely stupid idea in the first place. Instead of shutting down nuclear power plants, we should have doubled down on them and spent more money on research to make them safer (as I understand it, there's still many unexplored concepts to make nuclear power much safer and reduce nuclear waste) and more efficient. The sad truth is, that decisio…

Chernobyl or Fukushima, or the numerous minor incidents But yes um also all for nuclear until fusion reactors are better, especially salt /thorium reactors And more focus to turn usable waste to RTGs etc

Bill gates documentary on Netflix was really, really interesting and touches this. Even made me appreciate Bill Gates which I didn't think was possible because of Windows :-)

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10837476/

Basically all the reactors involved in the incidents are based on very old technology and had design problems (which is not surprising as the technology and science was new at the time these were built - fukushima 1971, chernobyl 1977).

What we really should do is to work on reactors whose main functionality is to provide energy with extremely minimal possibility for meltdown. It's too bad that even with resources of Gates it seems to be impossible to advance the nuclear technology - I see it as the main way to save our planet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TerraPower

Re: Germany looks to step up coal exit timetable

#23

Post by Brave-Steak » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:20 AM UTC

nicolaslem wrote: post #19

barry-cotter wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At worst they can import electricity from France which has plenty of nuclear power.

France will not have plenty of nuclear power to spare, many reactors are old and there is no plan to build more of them. In a few decades most reactors will have to shutdown because these things don't live forever.

They don't even have enough spare capacity now. I think I remember reading that when peak loads were particularly high recently, they had to import power from Germany.

Re: Germany looks to step up coal exit timetable

#24

Post by meerita » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:20 AM UTC

Didn't they opened a new coal plant? https://climatechangenews.com/2020/01/09/wont-let-germany-bu...

Re: Germany looks to step up coal exit timetable

#25

Post by cesarb » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:23 AM UTC

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #9

_n_b_ wrote: post #3

This seems nearly unachievable--and will punishingly expensive--if they don't reverse their nuclear phase-out.

I know this isn't a very popular opinion, but I've always thought that was a hugely stupid idea in the first place. Instead of shutting down nuclear power plants, we should have doubled down on them and spent more money on research to make them safer (as I understand it, there's still many unexplored concepts to make nuclear power much safer and reduce nuclear waste) and more efficient. The sad truth is, that decisio…

> that decision was largely driven by uninformed and emotional reactions to a single event on the other side of the world.

Chernobyl wasn't on the "other side of the world", it was so close that the country was affected by the radioactive pollution.

Re: Germany looks to step up coal exit timetable

#26

Post by goatinaboat » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:23 AM UTC

mikkom wrote: post #22

gallexme wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chernobyl or Fukushima, or the numerous minor incidents But yes um also all for nuclear until fusion reactors are better, especially salt /thorium reactors And more focus to turn usable waste to RTGs etc

Bill gates documentary on Netflix was really, really interesting and touches this. Even made me appreciate Bill Gates which I didn't think was possible because of Windows :-) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10837476/ Basically all the reactors involved in the incidents are based on very old technology and had design problems (which is not surprising as the technology and science was new at the time these were built - fu…

It must be a deliberate tactic of the anti-nuclear lobby, to simultaneously block new reactors being built and complain that old reactors are obsolete. There is no other explanation that makes sense!

Re: Germany looks to step up coal exit timetable

#27

Post by lispm » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:27 AM UTC

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #9

_n_b_ wrote: post #3

This seems nearly unachievable--and will punishingly expensive--if they don't reverse their nuclear phase-out.

I know this isn't a very popular opinion, but I've always thought that was a hugely stupid idea in the first place. Instead of shutting down nuclear power plants, we should have doubled down on them and spent more money on research to make them safer (as I understand it, there's still many unexplored concepts to make nuclear power much safer and reduce nuclear waste) and more efficient. The sad truth is, that decisio…

> The sad truth is, that decision was largely driven by uninformed and emotional reactions to a single event on the other side of the world.

Actually it's completely the other way: in Germany an informed population discussed this topic for two decades and eventually a consensus in society emerged to slowly phase out nuclear first and to create a new, renewable and market-oriented energy landscape.

In Japan an uniformed population was surprised to learn over night that a single event can take out all their nuclear power plants for months & years and can cause for many of these nuclear power plants their sudden end of life. They were also surprised to learn that cores can melt in nuclear power plants and that the industry and regulators have no idea how to handle that.

Re: Germany looks to step up coal exit timetable

#28

Post by DarkWiiPlayer » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:29 AM UTC

cesarb wrote: post #25

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this isn't a very popular opinion, but I've always thought that was a hugely stupid idea in the first place. Instead of shutting down nuclear power plants, we should have doubled down on them and spent more money on research to make them safer (as I understand it, there's still many unexplored concepts to make nuclear power much safer and reduce nuclear waste) and more efficient. The sad truth is, that decisio…

> that decision was largely driven by uninformed and emotional reactions to a single event on the other side of the world. Chernobyl wasn't on the "other side of the world", it was so close that the country was affected by the radioactive pollution.

If I remember it correctly, almost nobody was talking about Chernobyl at the time because everyone knew that was just a mix of stupidity and the level of understanding at the time just being vastly different from today.

Re: Germany looks to step up coal exit timetable

#29

Post by lispm » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:30 AM UTC

cesarb wrote: post #25

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this isn't a very popular opinion, but I've always thought that was a hugely stupid idea in the first place. Instead of shutting down nuclear power plants, we should have doubled down on them and spent more money on research to make them safer (as I understand it, there's still many unexplored concepts to make nuclear power much safer and reduce nuclear waste) and more efficient. The sad truth is, that decisio…

> that decision was largely driven by uninformed and emotional reactions to a single event on the other side of the world. Chernobyl wasn't on the "other side of the world", it was so close that the country was affected by the radioactive pollution.

Additionally lots of soviet-style reactors were in own country and next to use.

Re: Germany looks to step up coal exit timetable

#30

Post by hokkos » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:30 AM UTC

It is easy and only a political issue, because of the coal workers, but just do like England and switch to fossil gas, it will be more useful with intermittent wind and solar, but only moderately helpful for CO2/CH4 emissions, and doesn't lead to deep decarbonation, where the only solution is a major nuclear mix, or more realistically for Germany with major renewable load the use of batteries storage for daily intermittency and hydrogen in salt caverns for seasonal intermittency.