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Finding Time to Invest in Yourself

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Re: Finding Time to Invest in Yourself

#21

Post by dang »

throw_14JAS wrote: post #20
dang wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been wondering about this for a long time. On average, what equity level would you say counts as "pathetically low" and what range would you say counts as fair? It seems to me that early employees are underpriced these days, the way that founders used to be, so a correction is probably inevitable. At the same time, there's no way seed-stage startups can match FB levels of compensation—the math just doesn't work.…

I generally see At least, that's what it would take for me to join a startup as first engineer versus starting my own business.

When you say 'first engineer' do you mean literally the first employee, or early (say 1 thru 5)? If the former, what do you think would be appropriate levels for, say, employees 2 thru 5? If the latter, are you arguing that the first 5 employees should be offered 50% of the company?

Just to be clear, I'm not disputing the point and don't have a strong opinion. I'm curious where HN users—who include many prospective early engineers—think the market needs to go. The comments about startup compensation are routinely so negative that it seems clear it needs to move; the question is what range would start to be fairer.

Re: Finding Time to Invest in Yourself

#22

Post by teachrdan »

This fluff piece was written so quickly that the author did not correctly comprehend a two-word quote that he uses:

> Coming out of college, Warren Buffett wanted to work for Benjamin Graham to learn to be a value investor. Buffett offered to work for free, and Graham responded, “You’re overpriced.” What that means is you have to make sacrifices to take on an apprenticeship.

No, what that means is that, as a fresh college graduate, Buffet added negative value to Graham. (Hence, even at $0 he was too expensive.)

Blog posts are often a bit like code: They take more effort to read than they do to write. In this case, the author spends so little time trying to produce something worth reading that I couldn't finish the article.

Even for free, this post was overpriced.

Re: Finding Time to Invest in Yourself

#23

Post by [deleted] »

seppin wrote: post #18
ditonal wrote: post #3

Founders want employees to have the founder mentality without giving them founder equity. AngelList (which this author is shilling) salaries and equity grants are pathetically low. So they write fluff pieces about how you’ll learn so much doing a founders laundry. I learned a lot more, faster, as an employee at big tech than at early stage startups. Startup VCs and company need to get out of the business of writing f…

The whole @DHH vs VC's debate on work was so silly. If you have founder/ownership stake in a business, working crazy hours is worth it. If you don't, it's not. Simple.

[deleted]

Re: Finding Time to Invest in Yourself

#24

Post by marmaduke »

teachrdan wrote: post #22

This fluff piece was written so quickly that the author did not correctly comprehend a two-word quote that he uses: > Coming out of college, Warren Buffett wanted to work for Benjamin Graham to learn to be a value investor. Buffett offered to work for free, and Graham responded, “You’re overpriced.” What that means is you have to make sacrifices to take on an apprenticeship. No, what that means is that, as a fresh co…

I like to think of reading as as a transformation which has a null space where all the dumb shit goes. This one went there. It doesn't mean you can't pull out other interesting tidbits like scaling better by growing a team instead individual contributions. This correlates with other blog posts which I can't recall now.

Re: Finding Time to Invest in Yourself

#25

Post by dang »

CPLX wrote: post #9

The first example is basically find a successful person and take a menial job sucking up to them and doing their laundry. Welcome to America 2020

Come on, you guys. HN comments need to be better than this—much better. Please read and follow the guidelines:

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I don't care about the author's argument one way or the other, but I care a lot about degraded discussion on HN.

Re: Finding Time to Invest in Yourself

#27

Post by neonate »

teachrdan wrote: post #22

This fluff piece was written so quickly that the author did not correctly comprehend a two-word quote that he uses: > Coming out of college, Warren Buffett wanted to work for Benjamin Graham to learn to be a value investor. Buffett offered to work for free, and Graham responded, “You’re overpriced.” What that means is you have to make sacrifices to take on an apprenticeship. No, what that means is that, as a fresh co…

It seems to me that the author comprehends the quote perfectly well. His point is that since Buffett was adding negative value to Graham out of the gate, he'd have needed to do something extra to make hiring him worth Graham's while. And that doing that something extra would have been a good investment because of the learning opportunities it would bring. That's the apprenticeship part. Disagree with the argument if you like (I do too), but don't read it unfairly and then rip him for it.

Re: Finding Time to Invest in Yourself

#28

Post by alexpetralia »

dang wrote: post #25
CPLX wrote: post #9

The first example is basically find a successful person and take a menial job sucking up to them and doing their laundry. Welcome to America 2020

Come on, you guys. HN comments need to be better than this—much better. Please read and follow the guidelines: " Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. " " Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidel…

On the other hand, I feel Hitchens' razor is useful here:

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

In other words, the "low quality" of comments may actually reflect a patent and blithe dismissal of a perceived "low quality" post. I think you must acknowledge, given the community's reaction, that this is potentially a low quality post.

In that case, such a reaction seems appropriate.

Re: Finding Time to Invest in Yourself

#29

Post by dang »

ccthr wrote: post #13

I feel like this is promoting wantrepeneur lifestyle and taking low paid long hour start up jobs to get on the ladder. Whilst innovation is important, and earning your stripes too, I get sick of this unspoken attitude that anyone who doesn't work for a "cool" startup must be unambitious and lack talent. Big tech are dominating most of the interesting problems. Startups likely can not compete with google - if they cho…

If that argument is correct, then startups are toast and it's big conglomerates from now on. I think that's going too far. Not everyone wants to work for a big company; not everyone wants to work for an ad company; and so on. What I'd like to know is whether startups can narrow the gap enough to be worth it for early engineers, once these non-compensation factors are included.

Re: Finding Time to Invest in Yourself

#30

Post by peteradio »

matz1 wrote: post #14
SandersAK wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t a shallow dismissal. I’m literally quoting a part of the piece that is absurdly bad. Would it be edifying for you and others if I explained why I think suggesting that a smart startup employee should not be doing the CEO’s laundry?

Please explain, i think the idea make sense. The menial job id done to show that no job is beneath you and to open up greater opportunity.

Sounds like a great way to get taken advantage of.
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