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Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property

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Re: Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property

#21

Post by GuB-42 »

vearwhershuh wrote: post #4

"What’s in it for the finder to be honest enough to hand in the item?" By asking this question, you deny yourself access to its answer.

Why? That's the kind of question that makes up the entire field of game theory.

In every situation, the most natural strategy is to maximize personal gains. That's how natural selection works. But when people don't act like that, it means there must be some opposing force, normally one that benefits society. There is a lot to learn here, in fields as diverse as biology, economics, computing, and of course, games.

Re: Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property

#22

Post by jotm »

sanitycheck wrote: post #6

I think part of this is that a far greater proportion of "lost" valuables in Japan are _really_ lost than in other countries, street crime being pretty rare. But still, that 6% figure for New York! Can it be true? Is it really normal to steal other people's shit if they leave it behind?

Man, I was living in the UK. A kid on a skateboard dropped his phone, didn't notice. Less than a minute later, a guy (gardener or construction worker by the looks of it) picks it off the ground and gets in his van. Bye bye phone.

Another time, found a wallet and returned it, the woman said it's unbelievable, no one else would do that. Gave me 10 pounds, too, heh (there was way more in the wallet, plus cards and ID, it's how I found her). I'd be very happy if someone did that for me.

But yeah, usually "finders keepers" holds true :/

I like these kind of stories from Japan, makes it seem like people do respect each other. Shame not everything is that good over there.

Re: Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property

#23

Post by jessriedel »

ookblah wrote: post #13

I found this similar mentality in Korea where you can leave your laptop, phone, etc. at a cafe completely exposed on a table while you go to the restroom or even out to lunch. When you come back your stuff will still be there. As I live in NYC, this completely blew my mind and I still felt that anxiety and awkwardness just leaving my stuff to go use the restroom. Near guaranteed theft in NYC lol. --- And to add anoth…

I worked in NYC coffee shops on a daily basis for 2 years (and Toronto and SF for more years). Whenever I went to the bathroom, I just asked a random person nearby if they would make sure no one walked off with my stuff. I never had anything stolen, and the people I ask don't seem bothered in the slightest. It's a very small burden, and I think there's something pleasant about having someone put their trust in you.

Re: Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property

#24

Post by vearwhershuh »

GuB-42 wrote: post #21
vearwhershuh wrote: post #4

"What’s in it for the finder to be honest enough to hand in the item?" By asking this question, you deny yourself access to its answer.

Why? That's the kind of question that makes up the entire field of game theory. In every situation, the most natural strategy is to maximize personal gains. That's how natural selection works. But when people don't act like that, it means there must be some opposing force, normally one that benefits society. There is a lot to learn here, in fields as diverse as biology, economics, computing, and of course, games.

Exactly.

Re: Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property

#25

Post by jessriedel »

nwienert wrote: post #16
virtuous_signal wrote: post #10

This smells like a lot of post-hoc rationalization. Collectivism? What about China, which did terribly on this kind of test. Shintoism? Only 3-4% of the population follows that. See https://www.latimes.com/science/la-sci-people-are-honest-los... where the graphic in the middle of the page compares countries. It appears that Scandinavian countries fare best followed by Eastern European. I would be happy to hear what p…

Homogenous, nationalistic, small country with high IQ, good education system, high GDP, low levels of immigration, and a culture that emphasizes community. Oh, and lower levels of inequality, relatively, and a more aligned politics/media system that doesn’t foment distrust.

I mostly agree, but note that Japan has 126M people, so it's quite large.

Re: Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property

#26

Post by factsaresacred »

virtuous_signal wrote: post #19
factsaresacred wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shame and the homogeneous makeup of the population likely play large roles. Comparing China to Japan won't do any good as the cultural revolution decimated its social capital.

I don't know about that last part. Most Eastern European countries were part of the USSR and underwent massive revolutions. I've even seen them described as low-trust societies, but they seem to do well.

The Cultural Revolution was unlike the political revolutions of Eastern Europe. It was a bloody orgy of violence and vandalism that attempted to tear traditional Chinese culture out from the roots, and in the process destroyed China's social fabric and trust, perhaps irreparably (or at least until the Party collapses and the country can confront its past - something the Eastern European nations have been allowed to do).

An excerpt from the book 'Out of Mao's Shadow':

> Families were torn apart as wives divorced husbands who had been accused of political crimes, children condemned parents, and siblings turned against one another. When the Cultural Revolution finally ended, it was easier for many people just to move on than talk about it...

> ...Such violence has not been expunged from the country’s collective memory so much as repressed, and repressed memories have a way of surfacing unexpectedly. There have always been voices in China calling on the nation to confront the barbarity of the Cultural Revolution. Only with an honest accounting and thoughtful examination of the era, they argue, can the country come to terms with the legacy of mistrust and moral decay that haunts it today.

Re: Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property

#27

Post by zebnyc »

Honest question: Do folks feel warm fuzzies when they do something "good / +ve"? Frankly unless I went out of my way to do something significant, I don't feel anything. Asking as there might be some of that going on here.

For e.g., around Christmas here in SF, I was a at a shopping mall parking lot waiting for my wife to return. I noticed a man counting a few bills of cash. He counted and then turned to head to his car. As he turned he dropped a couple of bills. I just shouted out to him to bring it to my attention so he could get it. I don't feel anything about the incident and would be hard pressed to use it as a barometer of my character.

Re: Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property

#28

Post by mcast »

jessriedel wrote: post #23
ookblah wrote: post #13

I found this similar mentality in Korea where you can leave your laptop, phone, etc. at a cafe completely exposed on a table while you go to the restroom or even out to lunch. When you come back your stuff will still be there. As I live in NYC, this completely blew my mind and I still felt that anxiety and awkwardness just leaving my stuff to go use the restroom. Near guaranteed theft in NYC lol. --- And to add anoth…

I worked in NYC coffee shops on a daily basis for 2 years (and Toronto and SF for more years). Whenever I went to the bathroom, I just asked a random person nearby if they would make sure no one walked off with my stuff. I never had anything stolen, and the people I ask don't seem bothered in the slightest. It's a very small burden, and I think there's something pleasant about having someone put their trust in you.

This is the standard I've encountered at coffee shops and school libraries, no one seems to mind. However, it would be easy to build an app that alarms when the battery becomes disconnected (i.e. someone walks away with your stuff).

Re: Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property

#30

Post by duxup »

supernova87a wrote: post #15

There are both amazingly good and amazingly bad things about Japanese culture. The shame of being seen to be not honest or respecting people's property leads to amazing responsibility and kindness. But it also leads to people being depressed and feeling constrained not to be able to break out of societal expectations. The very things that make us love Japan, would make you go crazy to live there. So enjoy the privile…

There was a good blog post about a guy living in Japan.

Here he was in this clean and crime free place, but his bicycle kept getting trashed overnight. Just his bike parked in a sea of other bikes.

He thought it was because he was a foreigner, but finally after he reported it to the police numerous times someone explained the phrase "The nail that sticks out gets knocked down." and pointed out the bikes he was buying were from China.

His bike looked similar to everyone else's bike in the area, but it was made by a Chinese company and there had been news stories about how these bikes were faulty / dangerous / bad (the information apparently was somewhat questionable).

So he bought a proper Japanese bike that looked like the other bikes, and it never happened again.

The contrast of a clean and orderly society with very targeted pressure by random members of society not to do something like buy the wrong bike ... is quite striking.

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