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'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

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Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#251
post #224

One problem is that tenure and standing for established scientists no longer afford any of the expected protections. James Watson was not discredited but promptly fired and "disgraced" for stating a well-supported scientific finding in abrupt layman's terms for an interview. The minds of cancel culture would probably say they gave this dinosaur enough chances to fade away, but he wouldn't. If they do want scientists…

James Watson - who was as close to royalty as you can get in science - worked very long and hard to get himself fired. It wasn’t just ”an interview”, but a lifetime of racism and sexism. Lior Pachter has a handy collection of quotes with links to sources: https://liorpachter.wordpress.com/2018/05/18/james-watson-in...

But you're just assuming that he is wrong based on your own presumptions without any actual knowledge about the subject.

The question is who is most likely to be right, a nobel prize winning Ph.D. specialized in molecular biology, genetics and zoology, who worked 20 years at Harvard etc, etc....or you.

This is exactly the problem of cancel culture.

Just because he points out something you don't like you're suddenly an expert and somehow think he is now wrong.

What about double helix? Is he wrong about that too? Based on what? Why don't you have an opinion about that? Because you don't care? Even though your ability to judge the correctness of this research is the same as the race-related studies.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're claiming that Watson's views of IQ, genetics, and race are scientific?

Absolutely. Your negative emotional reaction to scientific research is not a valid refutation of that research. Science is based on logic, not emotions. Facts do not care about your feelings.

Such rigorous scientific as the often refuted "Bell Curve." This is just modern day phrenology

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Your negative emotional reaction to scientific research is not a valid refutation of that research. Science is based on logic, not emotions. Facts do not care about your feelings.

I find it strange that when people defend so called “race science” today a common argument seems to be along the lines of “this is correct because some people have negative emotional response to something”. While having a negative emotional response to something certainly isn't an counter argument in itself and isn't a pro argument either! A viewpoint isn't correct merely because it pisses some people off. Either way…

Races may not be a biologically valid category but ancestry is, and the fact that some populations are intermediate on a cline doesn’t mean most people can’t be relatively cleanly assigned to a population level continental ancestry group[1]. Ancestry groups may not be valid if you’re a biologist but they’re certainly relevant for those dealing with within species variation[2]. This is not to say that ‘race’ is the be all and end all of ancestry informed medicine but they’re better than nothing. More information is better but acting like crude ancestry measures tells you nothing is pure ignorance.

[1] https://bmcgenet.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-215...

Developing a set of ancestry-sensitive DNA markers reflecting continental origins of humans

By means of our pairwise population FST ranking approach we identified a set of 47 SNPs that could serve as a panel of ASMs at a continental level.

[2] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kenneth_Kidd/publicatio...

Implications of biogeography of human populations for ‘race’ and medicine

In this review, we focus on the biogeographical distribution of genetic variation and address whether or not populations cluster according to the popular concept of ‘race’. We show that racial classifications are inadequate descriptors of the distribution of genetic variation in our species. Although populations do cluster by broad geographic regions, which generally correspond to socially recognized races, the distribution of genetic variation is quasicontinuous in clinal patterns related to geography. The broad global pattern reflects the accumulation of genetic drift associated with a recent African origin of modern humans, followed by expansion out of Africa and across the rest of the globe. Because disease genes may be geographically restricted due to mutation, genetic drift, migration and natural selection, knowledge of individual ancestry will be important for biomedical studies. Identifiers based on race will often be insufficient.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#254
post #224

One problem is that tenure and standing for established scientists no longer afford any of the expected protections. James Watson was not discredited but promptly fired and "disgraced" for stating a well-supported scientific finding in abrupt layman's terms for an interview. The minds of cancel culture would probably say they gave this dinosaur enough chances to fade away, but he wouldn't. If they do want scientists…

James Watson - who was as close to royalty as you can get in science - worked very long and hard to get himself fired. It wasn’t just ”an interview”, but a lifetime of racism and sexism. Lior Pachter has a handy collection of quotes with links to sources: https://liorpachter.wordpress.com/2018/05/18/james-watson-in...

Wow, I never realized the extent of it!

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#255
post #251
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

James Watson - who was as close to royalty as you can get in science - worked very long and hard to get himself fired. It wasn’t just ”an interview”, but a lifetime of racism and sexism. Lior Pachter has a handy collection of quotes with links to sources: https://liorpachter.wordpress.com/2018/05/18/james-watson-in...

But you're just assuming that he is wrong based on your own presumptions without any actual knowledge about the subject. The question is who is most likely to be right, a nobel prize winning Ph.D. specialized in molecular biology, genetics and zoology, who worked 20 years at Harvard etc, etc....or you. This is exactly the problem of cancel culture. Just because he points out something you don't like you're suddenly a…

> The question is who is most likely to be right, a nobel prize winning Ph.D. specialized in molecular biology, genetics and zoology, who worked 20 years at Harvard etc, etc....or you.

It doesn't really matter either way when you're pushing your opinions and anecdotal opinions as fact.

> What about double helix? Is he wrong about that too? Based on what? Why don't you have an opinion about that? Because you don't care? Even though your ability to judge the correctness of this research is the same as the race-related studies.

How exactly is this relevant?

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it strange that when people defend so called “race science” today a common argument seems to be along the lines of “this is correct because some people have negative emotional response to something”. While having a negative emotional response to something certainly isn't an counter argument in itself and isn't a pro argument either! A viewpoint isn't correct merely because it pisses some people off. Either way…

Races may not be a biologically valid category but ancestry is, and the fact that some populations are intermediate on a cline doesn’t mean most people can’t be relatively cleanly assigned to a population level continental ancestry group[1]. Ancestry groups may not be valid if you’re a biologist but they’re certainly relevant for those dealing with within species variation[2]. This is not to say that ‘race’ is the be…

> This is not to say that ‘race’ is the be all and end all of ancestry informed medicine but they’re better than nothing.

Actually, it's often worse than nothing. Even assuming that "race" is entirely genetic and not a social construct, fitness in society changes so rapidly, that no genetics can properly account for it.

A day laborer born in the 1950s U.S. a genetically perfect fit for mining coal, might have had a great deal of success for the first 20 years of their career, and then a poor outcome for the last 10 years. Nothing changed with their genetics, they just became less desirable within society based on social trends.

Genetic changes take generations, often dozens of generations, to realize any noticeable difference. Social changes often occur in years and sometimes months, far faster.

Therefore, any conclusions based on genetics that fail to consider how the genetics fall within society are missing most of the point.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#257
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t say robust beyond dispute, but Brown disavowed their own professor’s research because it disagreed with the orthodoxy: https://thefederalist.com/2018/08/31/explosive-ivy-league-st...

There was quite a lot wrong with this paper, and it wasn't about the "orthodoxy." The study makes claims about children, but the study was actually a survey of how parents felt about their children's transition. There was significant bias in how parents were selected to participate in this survey; it was predominantly advertised on anti-trans websites. The survey itself was biased. By all accounts, the statistical an…

There are so many papers that make claims that are in no way proven by the actual research done, whose authors don't get disavowed, that it's almost certain it was because of the topic.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Two and two may equal four" being a bunch of nonsensical racist slandering based on no evidence. Every result ever has pointed that all races and genders are equally "intelligent" and well-suited to the same tasks. And trust me, there's been no lack of racist scientists. It's just that bullshit doesn't stick.

Oh here comes the racist brigade to yell down moral proclamation upon the unwashed masses. You know what, who cares if Watson was a flaming racist? He has done more than almost any other person to save the lives of millions of Africans but he makes one opinion about intelligence and hes slagged off and completely discredited? Cancel culture has been in science a lot longer than people know.

> He has done more than almost any other person to save the lives of millions of Africans

How?

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#259

While this explicit cancel culture has been slow to arrive, this is exactly the kind of traditionally left leaning activism which has gradually come to infest almost all of academia (and to a lesser but growing extent, industry). The result is an extremely strong, emergent cultural pressure against certain results and certain questions, which has been holding back a wide range of fields and ensuring pursuit of severe…

it makes me sad this sort of unnuanced, oh-so-rational take unengaged by any sort of philosophy is still getting upvotes in HN. posting here feels like a lost cause.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#260
The most valuable research on the topic of chilling effects has been done by Heterodox academy[1].

I especially recommend their recent article on "seizing the means of knowledge production"[2], because it explains how we got here and provides examples of some sort of suspension of skepticism: «For instance, training on microaggressions, white privilege, implicit bias (coined in 1993, fyi), etc. were institutionalized in the private sector, and even among government agencies, well before there was any kind of robust empirical literature validating these constructs or showing that the proposed interventions would be effective. Indeed, the available empirical evidence now suggests that there are deep problems across the board with these ideas and approaches (here, here, here, here, here, here, here for more on this point). However, these frameworks and interventions are already so deeply entrenched – including within institutions of higher learning — that the empirical research is now almost entirely beside the point». Of course, this open-mindedness was more than matched by extreme suspicion and demand for rigour in the other direction[3], which we also see here.

Also consider that personal views of experimenters affect what results they get, with a very large effect size – larger than most effect sizes actually discovered in social science[4], which, given political leanings in sciences such as psychology[5] and the replication crisis, makes one wonder how much trust should be given even to actual long-standing scientific arguments against politically unpopular ideas. But such arguments make an incredibly small contribution to the intellectual rejection of this research.

To people who argue on the topic of race & intelligence (which is indeed the most obvious, the most politicized, but not the only point of contention), bringing up arguments like "research did not control for environmental differences" or "g factor is meaningless" or "IQ tests are not fair", I want to say: you know almost nothing on the issue, you don't understand how little you know[6], and the fact that you perceive yourself as knowing enough to make confident judgements is precisely the testament to the power ideology has over popular reporting. But it does not yet have equal power over science, which is why actual researchers have views very different from yours[7], and of course all these criticisms were understood, and many addressed, decades ago, e.g.: «A 1999 literature review re-examined the conclusions of Bias in Mental Testing using new data. It concluded that empirical evidence strongly supported Jensen's conclusion that mental tests are equally valid measures of ability for all English-speaking people born in the United States. The review further argued that misinformation about bias in IQ tests is very pervasive, and thus it is important for the empirical data in this field to be clearly conveyed to the public»[8]. If you wish to learn about it, better read «The Neuroscience of Intelligence» by Richard J. Haier from Cambridge University Press, 2016[9], it's an excellent summary. Don't rely on Youtube videos and opinionated blog posts.

I could go on and on. But in general, HN's reaction to this topic is disappointing: obviously intelligent, well-meaning and skeptical people straining their eloquence to rationalize what amounts to journalists' ignorant, unhelpful [10] and politically biased[11] opinion on science, all (I presume) out of unconscious desire to not have a stain on one's career or being considered morally corrupt.

So it goes.

1: https://heterodoxacademy.org/about-us/

2: https://heterodoxacademy.org/seizing-means-knowledge-product...

3: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10699-015-9421-3

4: http://www.lscp.net/persons/dupoux/teaching/JOURNEE_AUTOMNE_...

5: http://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/09/14/bbs-paper-on-lack-of-...

6: http://www.gwern.net/Mistakes#iq-race

7: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016028961...

8: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_in_Mental_Testing

9: https://www.amazon.com/Neuroscience-Intelligence-Cambridge-F...

10: http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/09/inequal...

11: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/jun/22/20040622-08...

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