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'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

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141–150 of 368 posts

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a correlation between IQ and race. It seems that no one will touch the subject out of fear the it would end their career.

A racial label doesn't tell you much of anything about their underlying ancestry or genetics. Here in the US you can easily find people who identify as white or black who have a mix of European, African and Native American ancestry. There are people looking for genes influencing intelligence, which is a more practical thing to look for.

It's been tried using 23andMe genetic data for over a million people.[1] No one gene seems to have a large effect, “Yet when we analyze the combined effects of many genetic variants, taken together they can predict the length of a person’s formal education as well as demographic factors.”

[1] https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-research/massive-study-on-t...

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Plus if denialism is wrong, then there should be nothing to worry about anyway. I don't follow the logic of that. If denialism is wrong, but it's influencing society and policy, how is that not something to worry about?

If your side is failing to convince people, the solution shouldn’t be “shut up the other side”, no matter how right you may be. It’s intellectually dishonest. By engaging in cancel culture, it gives the silenced side way more credibility, because they can say “why are they afraid to let us speak?” It’s not just that cancel culture is morally bad, its also ineffective.

When the "other side" is arguing in bad faith, you're damned if you let them speak and damned if you don't. Someone like that isn't going to play by the rules of logical, rational discourse - such as sticking to the facts - so there isn't much to be gained by letting them speak versus not giving them a platform. I point you to Holocaust denialism, which has a long, rich tradition of ignoring, obfuscating, or concocting elaborate alternative explanations for any truths that run counter to their dogma. Or for something more benign, the flat earth movement or the Apollo landing conspiracy theorists.

It's easy for a bullshitter to make up more bullshit, and people love to believe "contrarian" bullshit so they can appear smarter than the next guy. Refuting bullshit takes time, energy, and effort that could be spent on more productive activities.

It's absolutely a worry that legitimate contrarian speech (I get that that's an oxymoron to some people) might be suppressed. But that's not what's currently happening.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my research of the domain I did come across this. It is one of the scariest proposals out there. These people risk causing irreversible damage to the oceans and all life within them. It's hubris to think we can do something like that and actually control it at a planetary scale. Also, refer back to my questions about the energy and resources required to do this, to do anything. While you are right in that the proc…

Originally you said "Conservation of Energy is an ass. It does not care one bit. Which means we can't solve a problem with less energy than what went into creating it in the first place." Enhanced silicate weathering is a way to draw down atmospheric CO2 with less energy than went into creating the problem. Still, perhaps it will never be deployed on a large scale if people find the proposal too scary. That's one of…

My point is that you can't just look at chemical reactions. How much will it take in energy and resources to make it happen? That's where Conservation of Energy becomes an ass.

In other words, it's easy to talk about a solution, any solution, in isolation of what it would really take to deploy it at a scale massive enough to affect planetary level changes. Think about all of the equipment, transportation, processing, people, energy, etc. We literally can't think about things at these scales.

To go back to my super-simple argument about how the planet behaved without us polluting it further. It typically took absolutely massive storms for tens of thousands of years to reduce CO2 by 100 ppm. I use 50,000 years as an average of sorts, but the reality is that the range extends all the way out to 100,000 years for 100 ppm.

Now imagine taking all of that and proposing that we are going to do the same in 50 or 100 years, without leaving the planet, without shutting down every form of transportation, without killing every industry on the planet and without reducing population to medieval levels. That is a tall order. It's one thing to run a little microscopic test (when compared to planetary scale everything is microscopic), quite another to have the audacity to claim we know what will happen if we take it global. We could create quite an ecological mess.

The things you mention we could have done. I don't think they would have made any difference. I mean, not in terms of atmospheric CO2 concentration. Human life, definitely. One of the things I learned --and I can't remember it accurately-- is that CO2 in the atmosphere "sticks" and is hard to mitigate. The idea is that anything we do at ground level will have zero impact past a certain altitude. We can certainly burn stuff and have the CO2 go up and circle the globe but we can't easily pull it down from 10, 20 or 30 km of altitude.

That's what a lot of these simplistic conversations miss. When I say it will take an astronomical amount of energy and resources I am thinking about a process that has to reach out and grab CO2 going up tens of kilometers into the atmosphere all around the globe. We just can't do this by installing solar panels, sprinkling the beaches with chemicals, banning coal and gasoline powered vehicles and devolving into the middle ages. This is a very tough problem and one that likely has no human-scale solution, both in terms of time and resources.

That said, I don't think this is reason for depression. Imagine for a moment if we agreed on this idea that we just can't fix it. What would our conversations turn to then? Improving human life? Developing technologies to help us live with the coming changes? Cleaning-up our act to improve life locally? That and more.

I would imagine the narrative would change radically. For one thing, we would stop hearing from ignorant politicians, celebrities, deniers and zealots. Researchers would be able to work on real research rather than having to get on the bandwagon for fear of never having access to research grants and opportunities. There is no telling what advances we might make if we just stopped the insanity this has become and allowed facts, reason and real unencumbered science and engineering to float to the top. Utopia, I know.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not suggesting choosing between left and right, only pointing out that the bias is pervasive and undeniable. Can you point to specific examples of this where the science is actually robust and well documented but has somehow been blocked from being published or otherwise stopped due to this pervasive bias?

You’re asking people to prove a negative, and also assuming that there’s no chilling effect as people learn that certain topics are not a good idea if you want a career. The premier example of robust, well documented science with vociferous opposition has to be intelligence. Besides scholars with a fiercer attachment to their politics than the truth like Gould you also have introductory psychology textbooks that go o…

That Noah Carl one is interesting, hadn't heard about that. The Cambridge college actually conducted a formal investigation with a panel led by a Professor, and published a statement [0] explaining their decision to retract the fellowship. The reasons cited were lack of research ethics and integrity in Carl's work, poor scholarship, and the risk of the college being used as a platform to promote racist views.

Frankly, this seems like a measured response to a fairly standard complaint. Perhaps the only part of it that grates me is the public and "outraged" nature of the complaint. Without knowing much more about Carl's actual work, I suppose the outstanding question is, if the reasons above are true then how did he get the offer in the first place?

[0] https://www.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.st-edmunds.cam.ac...

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t be stripped of a Nobel prize.

Looks like he sold his medal [0] to ameliorate his loss of earnings; perhaps that's to what GP was referring. [0] - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/11261872/James-Wats...

He never actually sold it [0]; a billionaire just paid him some cash instead and Watson got to keep his prize.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/dec/09/russian-bill...

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#146
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate change is empirical fact, the extent of climate change is not. Within the scientific community, there are wildly differing theories about impact and causes. As for climate modeling, there are WILD differences in projections. This is why there are constant "X years until point of no return!" articles in tabloid media, which are all different and usually incorrect. Immediately shooting people down for being ant…

Not really, this is a tired trope, climate change mostly boils down to well-established physics relating to energy transference which is pretty consistent to my understanding, here's Nasa also saying as much: https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2943/study-confirms-climate-mo...

What's a tired trope?

Back in 2014, Nature did an entire series of articles that attempted to explain the "global warming pause".[1]

And now, recent articles claim there never was a pause.[2]

So it's apparent there is disagreement even among those scientists who are firm believers in global warming.

[1]https://www.nature.com/collections/sthnxgntvp [2]https://insideclimatenews.org/news/18122018/global-warming-h...

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#147
A point I've heard Neil deGrasse Tyson make a few times is that despite the fact that Edwin Hubble was a heinous racist, that should have no bearing on the validity of his scientific contributions.

I have a feeling that with sufficient rabble rousing a twitter mob could figure out how to get the name of the space telescope and constant changed.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even race, but just suggesting that evolutionary psychology is a valid scientific field can get you crucified in some circles. Somehow the human brain avoided all sexual selection forces, environmental pressures, and even difference between the sexes; but everything else in our bodies was at the complete mercy of these factors.

But evo psych isn't a valid scientific field; there's no way to go back and conduct experiments to validate hypotheses. It's a bunch of nonsense just-so stories that appeal to people's existing biases. It's horoscopes-and-crystals-woo dressed up in the language of science.

>there's no way to go back and conduct experiments

Well then, you should probably throw out psychology, sociology, climate science, economics, and geology, among other fields, if you want to be consistent.

Perhaps you've stumbled upon the distinction between hard and soft science.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#149
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re asking people to prove a negative, and also assuming that there’s no chilling effect as people learn that certain topics are not a good idea if you want a career. The premier example of robust, well documented science with vociferous opposition has to be intelligence. Besides scholars with a fiercer attachment to their politics than the truth like Gould you also have introductory psychology textbooks that go o…

That Noah Carl one is interesting, hadn't heard about that. The Cambridge college actually conducted a formal investigation with a panel led by a Professor, and published a statement [0] explaining their decision to retract the fellowship. The reasons cited were lack of research ethics and integrity in Carl's work, poor scholarship, and the risk of the college being used as a platform to promote racist views. Frankly…

Yeah, if you get to pick the committee you can get them to report whatever you want, whether you explicitly instruct them as to what to find or not. Read his work for yourself and come to your own conclusions.

His research gate profile.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Noah_Carl

His website.

https://supportnoahcarl.com/

> Since I was fired, over 600 academics have signed a petition supporting me , and several leading newspapers have published articles criticising the college’s decision. The support I’ve received so far has been incredible! But petitions and newspaper articles aren’t enough. If we want to safeguard academic freedom, and freedom of speech more generally, we need to start imposing real, material costs on the institutions that buckle under activists’ pressure.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re asking people to prove a negative, and also assuming that there’s no chilling effect as people learn that certain topics are not a good idea if you want a career. The premier example of robust, well documented science with vociferous opposition has to be intelligence. Besides scholars with a fiercer attachment to their politics than the truth like Gould you also have introductory psychology textbooks that go o…

Hell, look at the insane , wholly unscientific public crucification of James Watson for commenting, totally reasonably, on this very subject. Stripped of a Nobel prize for suggesting that two and two may equal four. Find me one credible media outlet which even questioned such treatment! Edit: sorry, I misread a headline about him losing the prize, it read stripped of "honors". Point still stands.

'Dr. Francis Collins, the director of the National Institutes of Health, said that most experts on intelligence “consider any black-white differences in I.Q. testing to arise primarily from environmental, not genetic, differences.”

Dr. Collins said he was unaware of any credible research on which Dr. Watson’s “profoundly unfortunate" statement would be based.' [0]

I think this video [1], does a good job of attacking a lot of race science and intelligence, though at 2.5 hours long it may be a bit too thorough.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/01/science/watson-dna-geneti...

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBc7qBS1Ujo

edited for formatting

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