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'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

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Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone came up with novel and valid research that disputes some specific claims of climate change I'd wager the research would have a difficult time being published and the author would be considered to be a denier.

That is a counterfactual because it hasn't happened. If it did happen, scientists would look at the evidence and adjust their theories because that is what scientists do.

This has happened repeatedly, though. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSIRO#Climate_change_censorshi...

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#62
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since twitter is horrible on mobile, here's a summary: # Nasorg sounds like NAS and could be mistaken for it. # Nasorg is conservative and have published material with conservative slant. # 7 out of 21 speakers are climate denialists. # Therefore it is righteous to deplatform them.

The wsj article is actually fairly accurate, since it has basically listed all the same arguments. The question is the last point: assuming everything else here is true, is this sufficient grounds for deplatforming? Do you want to live in a world where it is? Edit: apparently the HN answer is: yes, we totes do.

Please don't add flamebait to HN comments, regardless of how frustrated you feel by other users. It only makes things worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#63
post #53
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent comment: > extremely strong, emergent cultural pressure against certain results and certain questions, which has been holding back a wide range of fields and ensuring pursuit of severely one sided science for decades. Your comment: > Once you start trying to attack climate change, you lose all your credibility I am a firm believer in climate science, but this reaction suggests that the post you're replying to…

> I am a firm believer in climate science, but this reaction suggests that the post you're replying to is correct. Sorry, there are things in this world called facts . There are things in this world that are empirically correct . As far as science can determine, climate change is factual and real. If that isn't your position, you really don't believe in climate science . And I'm calling you out on it--this isn't a "t…

Right. I agree with all of that. My position is that I defer to the majority of scientists on the topic. The argument I'm making is a bit different, though:

No amount of supporting evidence renders a topic exempt from scrutiny.

Climate science is solid, to my knowledge. And while I think most of the people who want to see it pulled down from the pedestal are wackos, intellectual humility demands that they be allowed to continue to try. Not with the same tired tactics – they shouldn't be able to DDoS debate with the same old crap. But to the extent that people can come up with novel, testable angles.. the question shouldn't be forbidden.

There's subjectivity here. IMO there are good faith and bad faith attempts to challenge eg climate science. The overwhelming majority are in bad faith. But the good faith versions of the question should not only go unpunished, but be encouraged.

It doesn't seem to go that way in practice. Certain lines of inquiry are de-facto forbidden in science, at least informally.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#64
post #47

Not saying for a moment that this conference is authoritative at all. Let's get that out of the way first. Is it possible for both sides of this matter to be right and wrong? Absolutely, and that is mostly the case. This, because of how f'd-up this climate change thing has become. It's a mess of indescribable proportions. Why are deniers right? Well, they are not. There's no denying this. Where they are right is in t…

Warning: I am not a climate scientist. However, I have to disagree that humanity has to leave the planet, or that it's impossible to fix. I will agree that it's very unlikely to be fixed or mitigated to a decent amount before disaster happens, but that's because of politics and human stupidity, not because it's not possible. More CO2 in the atmosphere doesn't have to equal higher average global temperatures. CO2 hold…

In the article mentioned by parent comment, they suggest extracting CO2 from atmosphere and storing it somewhere safe. There is (at time of article's writing) no technology capable of doing so. I guess it is would be "safer" than creating a "solar shade"? I am not a climate scientist either..

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#65
> " By Peter W. Wood"

> " Mr. Wood is president of the National Association of Scholars. "

Of course the person being "cancelled" would write an opinion piece on "cancel culture".

One person criticised his event on twitter and he wrote an opinion piece on WSJ about how he's being persecuted. This seems incredibly childish to me. Especially considering the original tweet* got under 100 retweets and about 130 likes.

Honestly, I feel like this is more likely to be advertising for the conference than an actual complaint about "cancel culture". Nothing here is noteworthy in any way.

*https://twitter.com/lteytelman/status/1215380405597065216

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#66
post #65

> " By Peter W. Wood" > " Mr. Wood is president of the National Association of Scholars. " Of course the person being "cancelled" would write an opinion piece on "cancel culture". One person criticised his event on twitter and he wrote an opinion piece on WSJ about how he's being persecuted. This seems incredibly childish to me. Especially considering the original tweet* got under 100 retweets and about 130 likes. Ho…

Opinion piece author, an anthropology PhD holder, has been pushing climate change denialism and attacking individual scientists via his NAS organization since 2009. He did the same thing to another scientist in 2011[1]. The publications he lists on the Federalist Society make his other agendas very clear. And yes, this is plain as day advertising and deception.

[1]:https://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/b...

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#67
The term cancel culture like political correctness is a PR term and an effective one. For global warming 1st year college physics is enough to tell that global warming is in fact real and pretty much all the cranks are on the well funded fossil fuel side. And then there's the likelihood that man created global warming will put an end to the human race.

Like the tabacco industry, maybe dissing these folks and giving them a hard time is in fact a good idea and also like tobacco pushback comes from older folks and the industry. In the former case it's a conservative form of ignorance. I've been smoking my whole life and it hasn't killed me yet or in this case I've been driving my whole life and it never caused any harm. In the latter case, it's psychopathic opportunism.

Meanwhile Australia and California (in season) are burning.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#68
post #47

Not saying for a moment that this conference is authoritative at all. Let's get that out of the way first. Is it possible for both sides of this matter to be right and wrong? Absolutely, and that is mostly the case. This, because of how f'd-up this climate change thing has become. It's a mess of indescribable proportions. Why are deniers right? Well, they are not. There's no denying this. Where they are right is in t…

Warning: I am not a climate scientist. However, I have to disagree that humanity has to leave the planet, or that it's impossible to fix. I will agree that it's very unlikely to be fixed or mitigated to a decent amount before disaster happens, but that's because of politics and human stupidity, not because it's not possible. More CO2 in the atmosphere doesn't have to equal higher average global temperatures. CO2 hold…

You misunderstood. I didn't say we have to leave the planet. What I am exposing in the data is that we know how atmospheric CO2 would decrease if we did (and took all of our toys with us).

The answer is simple: We cannot fix this. Because any attempt would require energy and resources beyond planetary scale. Which means we are far more likely to kill everything on this planet than to fix it.

I am not a climate scientist either. I am, however, an engineer, and I have a pretty solid handle on Physics. Conservation of Energy alone says we cannot fix this.

BTW, by "fix this" I mean, any faster than the natural rate of about 50,000 years for a reduction of 100ppm.

If you take the time to read the Google paper I linked you'll find the statement that sent me on a path to truly try to understand this many years ago. They said, paraphrasing:

"Even if we convert all energy generation on the entire planet to the most optimal forms of renewable energy, not only will we not see atmospheric CO2 levels decline or level-off, they will continue to rise exponentially".

This was a conclusion exactly opposite what the researchers went into this "knowing". I appreciate they were honest enough to publish this and actually expose just how confused we've become about this concept of saving the planet. It simply isn't going to happen. Not in a generation, not in a hundred, not even in a thousand.

You see, it's that pesky bit of data: 50,000 years for a reduction of 100 ppm. Without humanity.

This means that if humans stay on the planet, even if population growth stopped, and we magically --because it would require magic-- became carbon neutral, it would still take at least 50,000 years to drop 100 ppm, or, more than likely, 100,000 or 200,000, pick a number.

This is equivalent to trying to remove smoke from your kitchen with a small fan while you continue to burn the food you are cooking on the frying pan. You just can't do it. You have to stop cooking and then wait for the small fan do do the job over a couple of hours. If you want it done faster you have to stop cooking and use a much larger fan (more energy). If you, on the other hand, continue to burn your food and install a bigger fan, you may or may not clear the smoke. If you do, it will likely take just as long or longer.

This isn't difficult stuff to understand. It's actually the most common sense science I've seen in a long time. The graphs tell a story. All we have to do is see it, read it and understand it.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#69
post #54

>An unhappy side effect of the digital age is “cancel culture.” i.e. "I am uncomfortable with large amounts of people telling me I'm an asshole."

Cancel culture is when people are actually canceled: when accounts are shut down, people are fired, bank accounts closed, people are blacklisted. Actual material damages. Trivialization does not serve your point.

Re: 'Cancel Culture' Comes to Science?

#70
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone came up with novel and valid research that disputes some specific claims of climate change I'd wager the research would have a difficult time being published and the author would be considered to be a denier.

We have plenty of evidence already showing the concentration of CO2 in Earth's atmosphere going back many thousands of years (from core samples). There really isn't any room left for debate, because the facts are clear, the only question is "just how bad will it be with all this extra carbon in the atmosphere?".

Why is "how GOOD will it be will all this extra carbon" never considered as an option?
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