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Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

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Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#191

Post by aviraldg »

volkk wrote: post #177
tra3 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the overall point you're making. > Clearly, the way to more money in the long run is the manager path even if you find it horrible. Gotta break this down. How much more money would one need to make justify having a shitty time 40+ hours a week?

Everyone's got their own numbers, I'm sure. But if you don't want to be sitting and coding at the age of 50 with 20 year olds around you "changing the world" for yet another VC startup that will fold in 4 years, your best bet is to make as much money as you possibly can as fast as you can and with some smart decisions attempt to retire in your 40s aka the FIRE thing that is popular these days. Misery is subjective bu…

> But if you don't want to be sitting and coding at the age of 50 with 20 year olds around you "changing the world"

I would actually be okay with doing this, if it were an option. I believe it is not, due to how ageist tech hiring is.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#192

Post by JamesBarney »

me551ah wrote: post #52

IMO being a good engineering manager is quite subjective and varies across companies and even teams. The traits of a good engineer would roughly be the same across companies and would be ranked according to knowledge, work experience and quality of code etc. And since a software engineer reports to an engineering manager, expectations are also based on the views of one person. Upper management in different companies…

I agree this is true of engineering managers but its also true of engineers.

Some organizations want them to engage with end users and do a lot of business analysis others want them to focus on coding.

Some organizations want engineers to follow protocol and coding guidelines to the tee. Other want you to make the right call for the circumstances.

Some organizations don't care how long something takes but want it to work perfectly. Others want to make sure you deliver a product on time even if it's buggy.

Some organizations expect you to always choose the right language/tool for the job, some want you to choose the organizational language/tool everyone is familiar with.

I'm a consultant and sometimes run into this issue. Building out an MVP for a start up is a completely different mindset than working on a fortune 500 Enterprise app.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#193

Post by jredwards »

downerending wrote: post #182
theflyinghorse wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quote a discussion on HR from a while back (can't find the actual link in my history) - "My manager can fire me but I can't fire my manager". Manager is a promotion if only based on power dynamics.

Not to quibble, but it's a lot easier for most of us to "fire" our managers than it is for them to fire us. If your manager sucks, start interviewing.

I don't think that's a quibble. I think that's pretty fundamental. Most people don't quit their jobs, they quit their managers. And to your point, it is MUCH easier to quit than it is to fire someone. Firing someone is generally a painstaking process.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#194

Post by arambhashura »

rmrm wrote: post #186
Jemaclus wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tactic that worked for me was to bring it up to my boss. I set up a 1:1 with him, and said "In 2-3 years, I want your job. How can I get there?" (and "want your job" obviously means "to do what you do" not literally take their job) If you have a good manager, they'll set you up for success, working with you to create a roadmap to get from IC to Manager. The steps in between would probably entail taking on larger…

Just wanted to second this. As a manager, even for people I know fairly well, I'm routinely surprised by little bits I learn as to what they want, what they dislike, or what gets them upset. Do not assume your manager can read your mind or that things are self evident and universal. With people, most things arent. Not much different than any relationship.

Just wanted to second your comment. I’m continually surprised at the number of individual contributors who (1) expect their manager to be perfect even though (s)he’s a human; (2) expect immediate gratification of their needs; (3) are only too happy to push all decision-making to the manager; (4) don’t realize that the mgr can be having a bad day; (5) compare their mgr to a friend’s mgr without comparing the job conditions; etc (not that a manager shouldn’t strive towards perfection).

OTOH, I’m also surprised by the number of managers who (1) implement something because “my friend at uses ; (2) don’t understand that their colleagues have lives outside work; (3) don’t realize that they’re being partial to some folks; (4) take advantage of the “meek” contributors; (5) don’t protect their team from upper mgmt when needed; (6) don’t do the grunt work when needed (and it’s always needed) etc.

In other words, just like any relationship, as you say.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#195

Post by LordFast »

JamesBarney wrote: post #192
me551ah wrote: post #52

IMO being a good engineering manager is quite subjective and varies across companies and even teams. The traits of a good engineer would roughly be the same across companies and would be ranked according to knowledge, work experience and quality of code etc. And since a software engineer reports to an engineering manager, expectations are also based on the views of one person. Upper management in different companies…

I agree this is true of engineering managers but its also true of engineers. Some organizations want them to engage with end users and do a lot of business analysis others want them to focus on coding. Some organizations want engineers to follow protocol and coding guidelines to the tee. Other want you to make the right call for the circumstances. Some organizations don't care how long something takes but want it to…

Same for product managers as well, ranging from technical customer support agents at enterprise fortune 500s to app developers at small startups.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#196

Post by msilb »

redleader9345 wrote: post #72

Warning ... cynical, pessimistic viewpoint coming. Here is a pattern that I've observed over a few jobs that I've held as a developer at different companies. Wondering if anyone has any similar experience. The first line manager (only manages individual contributors) exhibits these characteristics. 1.)He used to be a coder, but that was a long time ago. SQL hasn't changed, so that's the bit he's drawn to when he feel…

Your description resonates quite well with my own experience. I've seen this over and over again in different (mostly large) enterprises. Peter principle at its best where someone with solid engineering skills gets promoted to become mediocre manager to the detriment of the rest of the team.

I think for someone considering engineering manager track your point #9 is really something to keep in mind. Many managers I've met are well aware of the fact that they're simply unemployable outside of their current company, which essentially becomes a "prison" for them.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#197

Post by winrid »

asdf21 wrote: post #172
winrid wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah, 300k. Made half that building and then leading teams for products that made many millions in ARR. Man I'll never get over how good of a deal they got.

How much do you make now?

Not 300k! But enough to make me happy, especially considering it's not a big player yet.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#198

Post by bradlys »

jredwards wrote: post #193
downerending wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to quibble, but it's a lot easier for most of us to "fire" our managers than it is for them to fire us. If your manager sucks, start interviewing.

I don't think that's a quibble. I think that's pretty fundamental. Most people don't quit their jobs, they quit their managers. And to your point, it is MUCH easier to quit than it is to fire someone. Firing someone is generally a painstaking process.

I've never had to fire someone but I've seen interviewing being very difficult. (With it being routinely common for engineers to spend months prepping on interview practice over weekends and nights before even doing their first real interview) Is firing someone really that difficult? I've seen it done on what seems like a whim - no long review process or anything.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#199

Post by bradlys »

JimboOmega wrote: post #90
brianmcc wrote: post #32

If anyone is considering moving into engineering management, you'd do well to look not just at the how but the why . If it's for status/salary rather than the change in nature of the work be very careful about making the move. You need to really want to manage and develop people (with all the idiosyncracies that real human beings come with!), and to communicate, co-ordinate, and delegate for a living. Some will love…

Who cares that much about the salary when you are that point in the Software Engineeering career track in SV anyway? What, really, is the difference between making $300K/yr and even fully doubling that to $600K? A nicer apartment, a nicer car, an earlier retirement? These are pretty marginal things if the cost is spending most of your time doing something you don't like. The most common reason somebody becomes an EM…

> Who cares that much about the salary when you are that point in the Software Engineeering career track in SV anyway? What, really, is the difference between making $300K/yr and even fully doubling that to $600K? A nicer apartment, a nicer car, an earlier retirement? These are pretty marginal things if the cost is spending most of your time doing something you don't like.

That is the difference between being a renter in SV for the rest of your life versus being an owner. It'd also set you up for retirement and potentially let you be a single income household.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#200

Post by swyx »

zackmorris wrote: post #130
swyx wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ahh. 2 and 3 are killers. i need to go meditate on this. to be fair tho, i don't expect most tech jobs to actually have a strong sense of purpose. it's that old SV trope of "we're making the world a better place through minimal message-oriented transport layers". #2 is a great question. its kind of like looking at the job through game design. its true i dont feel like i'm becoming better and i dont see a clear path t…

I'm not a manager, but I think I might have been where you are now a year ago. My agency and I ended up separating. At the time I felt a tremendous sense of relief, but now, I feel mostly regret because of the potential of that job and how ideal it had been in the first 2-3 years. I miss everyone terribly and wish I could magically go back to the good times because they were truly wonderful, like something out of a d…

thanks :) i definitely do have a bit of imposter syndrome, although i guess i actively seek it out. "if you're not the dumbest person in the room you may be in the wrong room" and all that.

i have rarely had a helpful convo with an HR person though. always hear the warnings at the back of my head that they're not on my side, they're on the company's side.

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