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Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

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Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#151

Post by thewanisdown »

vi-mode wrote: post #143
thewanisdown wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DNA evidence works well. In all seriousness, I recommend not referring to them as "reports" at all. Call them "My Team", "us", "we". It creates a sense of collective ownership. When talking up, I use specific names, or "the team" to reference tasks or successes, and "I" when we talk about failures. I own what goes wrong, they own what goes right.

Hm, how should this work? If I'd ask you, 'How many direct reports do you have', what would you say? You need to use the term 'direct report' again. If you fuzzed around with 'my team' while I try to understand you team structure, your direct report count, their profile, which and how many reports they again have, you'd drive me nuts with a fake 'my team' humbleness. Using the term 'report' is absolutely ok, you shou…

You seem to be taking something about this thread very personally. I'm sorry for that. I hope you have a good day.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#152

Post by com2kid »

enraged_camel wrote: post #104
burlesona wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000x less fun? That’s extremely subjective, and depends enormously on what you draw satisfaction from. Leading people can be a lot of fun if you genuinely care about the people you are leading and take joy from empowering and enabling them to grow and succeed.

I don't see this as subjective, because dealing with computers and technology is a fundamentally different type of activity, and requires a totally different set of skills, than dealing with people. If you're the type of person who enjoys the former, I think it's safe to say you won't enjoy the latter much, at least not at first.

> If you're the type of person who enjoys the former, I think it's safe to say you won't enjoy the latter much, at least not at first.

I disagree, I volunteered (edit: to step up and take on) for a manager role and discovered I loved it. I really enjoy helping built teams and team culture, helping people learn and grow in their career and abilities, and working to coordinate work across multiple teams to get work done at a scale that I never could have as an IC.

Saying that people who enjoy coding don't like dealing with people is like saying people who enjoy painting won't like programming, it is a stereotype that is easily dis-proven by the existence of people who, in both cases, do enjoy both!

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#153

Post by vi-mode »

ska wrote: post #142
vi-mode wrote: post #80

OT: for those who have never been in leader/managerial positions: - Leading people is 1000x less fun than coding - Leading people makes your more money than as an avg coder - Leading people too long makes you lose your technical skills slowly - At some age and for most, there's no other option than leading, 'go or grow' - Leading bigger headcounts is comparable to competitive sports 24/7 and shouldn't be underestimat…

On the other hand, an effective leader can - usually tackle bigger problems/projects than they could ever address as an IC - make sure their team isn't wasting time on the wrong things - accelerate the development of inexperienced team members - make sure that the team is more than the sum of it's parts; hopefully very much more - avoid getting bogged down on technical details that will not be relevant for long. Some…

Sorry, but what you write could come from any of the millions of self-help leadership books or blog spam from the net. Random, generic advice. This is too simple for my taste and I am not talking about what effective leadership is. Maybe you talk about a first leadership experience or managing two interns and find this rewarding. Yes this is def fun.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#154

Post by vi-mode »

com2kid wrote: post #152
enraged_camel wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see this as subjective, because dealing with computers and technology is a fundamentally different type of activity, and requires a totally different set of skills, than dealing with people. If you're the type of person who enjoys the former, I think it's safe to say you won't enjoy the latter much, at least not at first.

> If you're the type of person who enjoys the former, I think it's safe to say you won't enjoy the latter much, at least not at first. I disagree, I volunteered (edit: to step up and take on) for a manager role and discovered I loved it. I really enjoy helping built teams and team culture, helping people learn and grow in their career and abilities, and working to coordinate work across multiple teams to get work don…

Managing people != dealing with people

This is the biggest misconception most have you have never led seriously. I like people, I like meeting people for a beer, for pair-programming, to date. Managing people is not about being with people.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#156

Post by com2kid »

vi-mode wrote: post #154
com2kid wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're the type of person who enjoys the former, I think it's safe to say you won't enjoy the latter much, at least not at first. I disagree, I volunteered (edit: to step up and take on) for a manager role and discovered I loved it. I really enjoy helping built teams and team culture, helping people learn and grow in their career and abilities, and working to coordinate work across multiple teams to get work don…

Managing people != dealing with people This is the biggest misconception most have you have never led seriously. I like people, I like meeting people for a beer, for pair-programming, to date. Managing people is not about being with people.

> This is the biggest misconception most have you have never led seriously.

As a manager, I managed my team, and dealt with a lot of other teams!

I was spending a good % of my time coordinating, organizing, and paving the way for my team to do good work. Ranging from ensuring the UI specs that got to them had been well vetted, to negotiating release schedules with other teams.

This extends even to engineering decisions. As an example, there were ways my team could implement a feature that'd save us time, but be harder for an upstream team to integrate with, or we could take more time implementing something to their requests at a cost to our schedule.

Balancing decisions like that is just as much talking to people in hallways between meetings as it is attending those meetings. It is forming relationships across an organization so that even when schedules get tight and times are tense, things don't get ugly.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#157

Post by crimsonalucard »

vi-mode wrote: post #91
burlesona wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000x less fun? That’s extremely subjective, and depends enormously on what you draw satisfaction from. Leading people can be a lot of fun if you genuinely care about the people you are leading and take joy from empowering and enabling them to grow and succeed.

Yes and no. You can move mountains with good teams, this is great and you will draw satisfaction from. But IDK if you had ever 100+ people in your reporting line for a longer time. Then you knew that it's everything BUT definitely not a lot of fun . It's super hard work and will push you and your mind dangerously to the limit.

100+ people doesn't scale. This is not how you lead. You need to form a pyramid structure or your leadership won't be effective.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#158

Post by vi-mode »

thewanisdown wrote: post #151
vi-mode wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, how should this work? If I'd ask you, 'How many direct reports do you have', what would you say? You need to use the term 'direct report' again. If you fuzzed around with 'my team' while I try to understand you team structure, your direct report count, their profile, which and how many reports they again have, you'd drive me nuts with a fake 'my team' humbleness. Using the term 'report' is absolutely ok, you shou…

You seem to be taking something about this thread very personally. I'm sorry for that. I hope you have a good day.

You think so? I just disagreed with the things you wrote because I think some of your statements are wrong and/or mislead and they're altogether also inconsistent.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#159

Post by ska »

vi-mode wrote: post #153
ska wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, an effective leader can - usually tackle bigger problems/projects than they could ever address as an IC - make sure their team isn't wasting time on the wrong things - accelerate the development of inexperienced team members - make sure that the team is more than the sum of it's parts; hopefully very much more - avoid getting bogged down on technical details that will not be relevant for long. Some…

Sorry, but what you write could come from any of the millions of self-help leadership books or blog spam from the net. Random, generic advice. This is too simple for my taste and I am not talking about what effective leadership is. Maybe you talk about a first leadership experience or managing two interns and find this rewarding. Yes this is def fun.

I was replying to something generic, balancing out the negatives a bit. I wasn't really talking about what can be effective, but what can be rewarding. YMMV of course.

The only reason I mentioned effective at all is that I don't think it is much fun to be a (knowingly) ineffective leader.

There is, in fact, fun to be found at every level. Perhaps not for every person, but that's life.

Re: Show HN: I wrote a book for engineers that want to become engineering managers

#160

Post by atmosx »

I will keep in on your book. I've read the "Effective Manager" and the "Manager's Path" so far. The first one has some good hints here and there but it's overly verbose and at times feels like a marketing campaign. The second one, I loved and resonates with my experience so far.

Congrats for getting published!

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