Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What is music? A unified theory of music and dreaming

whatismusic.info

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 73 posts

Re: What is music? A unified theory of music and dreaming

#51

Post by cs1717p »

undershirt wrote: post #21

A weird hypothesis is that a dream might not even be a story until you wake up—like a wave function collapse[1] of abstract brain activity. Freud wrote about a man being jolted awake by his headboard falling on his neck the very moment he had been guillotined in a dream, and I think most of us have examples. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function_collapse

I have experienced several instances where I dream that I am with some friend/colleague/etc e.h. helping him solve some problem. Upon waking up, I check my phone and then sure enough that same friend has in fact contacted with the same or similar message as in my dream.

In several instances these are people I haven't heard from in a long time, with some very hard to guess specific reason why they contacted me. (E.g. a long time friend asking me to help his dad with something).

My memory is very clear that I had the dream and processed it (with some reaction of 'huh strange, fancy dreaming about that guy) before I opened my phone and found the text/email from that person. But is that memory being rewritten somehow afterwards?

Or is there perhaps some kind of vaguely wavefunction/quantum/etc phenomena that leads some information to be transmitted back in time by a few minutes? Hard to say, but definitely food for thought

Re: What is music? A unified theory of music and dreaming

#52

Post by hellofunk »

dmitshur wrote: post #20

From https://whatismusic.info/blog/HypothesisMusicLetsUsPracticeH... : > Now let us suppose that the person enjoys listening to music. > > Music enables the person to feel very strong emotions that lie outside the range of their normal everyday emotions. > > Music lets a person feel these emotions, almost, but not quite, as if those emotions were real. I’m quite puzzled by these statements. I enjoy listening to some…

> But I don’t see at all how music is connected to experiencing emotions.

Wow, unless I don't understand this sentence, I'm surprised by it.

Music instills emotional reaction all the time -- it can change your mood, it creates the emotional feel of movie scenes, and all sorts of things. It is connected to emotional response, is it not?

Re: What is music? A unified theory of music and dreaming

#53

Post by comsolo »

undershirt wrote: post #21

A weird hypothesis is that a dream might not even be a story until you wake up—like a wave function collapse[1] of abstract brain activity. Freud wrote about a man being jolted awake by his headboard falling on his neck the very moment he had been guillotined in a dream, and I think most of us have examples. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function_collapse

I have experienced several instances where I dream that I am with some friend/colleague/etc e.g. helping him/her solve some problem.

Upon waking up, I check my phone and then sure enough that same friend has in fact contacted with the same or similar message as in my dream.

In several instances these are people I haven't heard from in a long time, with some very hard to guess specific reason why they contacted me. (E.g. a long time friend asking me to help his dad with something).

My memory is very clear that I had the dream and processed it (with some reaction of 'huh strange, fancy dreaming about that guy) before I opened my phone and found the text/email from that person. But is that memory being rewritten somehow afterwards?

Or is there perhaps some kind of vaguely wavefunction/quantum/etc phenomena that leads some information to be transmitted back in time by a few minutes? Hard to say, but definitely food for thought

Re: What is music? A unified theory of music and dreaming

#54

Post by shurcooL »

hellofunk wrote: post #52
dmitshur wrote: post #20

From https://whatismusic.info/blog/HypothesisMusicLetsUsPracticeH... : > Now let us suppose that the person enjoys listening to music. > > Music enables the person to feel very strong emotions that lie outside the range of their normal everyday emotions. > > Music lets a person feel these emotions, almost, but not quite, as if those emotions were real. I’m quite puzzled by these statements. I enjoy listening to some…

> But I don’t see at all how music is connected to experiencing emotions. Wow, unless I don't understand this sentence, I'm surprised by it. Music instills emotional reaction all the time -- it can change your mood, it creates the emotional feel of movie scenes, and all sorts of things. It is connected to emotional response, is it not?

Perhaps I shouldn’t have said “I don’t see at all” because that’s an exaggeration. I see some connection, e.g., listening to music can feel “enjoyable”, just not “very strong emotions that lie outside the range of their normal everyday emotions”.

As an example, here’s a random song that has a nice beat and I enjoy listening to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY-4-O7GetQ. What kind of “strong emotions outside the normal everyday range” can one feel when listening to it?

I agree certain rare songs can instill strong emotional responses, but that isn’t the case when just listening to random music that sounds good for the first time.

Re: What is music? A unified theory of music and dreaming

#55

Post by irrational »

tartoran wrote: post #15
irrational wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between not dreaming and not remembering your dreams? I'm nearly 50 and I have absolutely no recollection of ever dreaming. Not once have I woken up and remembered anything happening between falling asleep and waking up. So, to the best of my knowledge I have never dreamed.

It appears you have musical anhedonia: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/03/please-do... Not sure how it relates to you not being able to have or remember dreams but it’s a very intersting coincidence nonetheless

Yes, I do have musical anhedonia.

Re: What is music? A unified theory of music and dreaming

#56

Post by irrational »

newnewpdro wrote: post #38
irrational wrote: post #5

Interesting. I don't dream and music has no emotional response for me. I wonder if they are related?

Have you ever tried taking Melatonin? In my experience it causes crazy dreams, if you'd like to experience some and haven't tried it maybe give it a shot

I have taken Melatonin a few times. It hasn't had any affect on dreaming (or lack thereof).

Re: What is music? A unified theory of music and dreaming

#57

Post by irrational »

fg6hr wrote: post #22
irrational wrote: post #5

Interesting. I don't dream and music has no emotional response for me. I wonder if they are related?

That's an interesting case. Can you feel fear, anger or excitement when awake? Dreaming and emotions are "done" by a very specific part of us that connects, in some sense, mind with body.

Yes, I can feel fear, anger, excitement and all other emotions when awake.

Re: What is music? A unified theory of music and dreaming

#58

Post by marcAKAmarc »

This article was very enjoyable. The connection between dream state emotions and musical emotions are undoubtable for me. I've always assumed that they felt so similar because the brain was practicing finding meaning in chaos by recognizing patterns in the chaos, then organizing and categorizing those patterns until meaning can be associated (through previous experience maybe).

However, I do have to say that I did disagree with a few assumptions the article made:

>However dreams are never about the strangeness or the alteration of reality.

Many nightmares that I have are actually about the strangeness of the dream itself. I realize that something is not normal, and instead of determining that I am experiencing a dream (and thus start entering a lucid dream state), I start feeling like I must have lost my sanity. This can be a truly terrifying experience when things really go off the rails.

Re: What is music? A unified theory of music and dreaming

#59

Post by 324908nh »

"Music and dreams are similar, because they both involve, or can involve, the processing of feelings in response to situations that are not real."

"This similarity between music and dreaming suggests that music and dreaming may actually serve similar biological purposes."

This does not follow at all. We don't know why we dream, or why we evolved to make music. It's hasty to suggest the two are related based on the sole observation that both produce feelings.

What's more, there's a big difference between feelings in dreams (which are responses to imagined situations) and feelings in music (which may result from formal qualities of harmony and melody, independent of any imagined situation.) The author explains this away by 1. focusing on music with lyrical and theatrical aspects, and 2. pretending that all listeners are supplementing the music with their own memories and imagined situations. As if nobody ever just heard a pretty tune and thought it sounded nice.

Then the author proceeds to make tenuous connections and meaningless distinctions for the next several paragraphs, based on this flimsy assertion that music and dreaming are alike because they produce feelings. All the while, citing no research to make these connections.

This reads like one of those post-structuralist nonsense papers that people on HN love to hate on. Why are we giving it the time of day?

Re: What is music? A unified theory of music and dreaming

#60

Post by BasDirks »

> However dreams are never about the strangeness or the > alteration of reality.

> If people with bad intentions are chasing you in a dream, > you don't start thinking about why your life changed so > much that now you have people wanting to kill you.

This is false. Such reasoning is very common in my dreams, with explanations a hybrid of dreamed facts and reality.

Post reply on HN