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The “No Code” Delusion

alexhudson.com

271–280 of 334 posts

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#271
Once read how the "no code" trend isn't really more than a marketing one. Went more or less like this: it will be great to build software without having to write code: you'll just have to specify what your program does. Except that a program's exact specification is the definition of its code and that the job of writing such exact specifications is what developers do. Conclusion: any "no code" tool will just be another way to write code ;)

Obviously the trick is in the difference between exact and fuzzy specifications. As a software engineer I could say my main job is to translate approximate specifications of business needs into a list of specific instructions on how to solve them i.e. code that can run on a computer. We'll probably have better tools and more efficient abstractions to do so but we'll still have to write some code.

I guess the "no code" topic could better be treated as "years of experience vs. hours of training". During my first job I once had to use a graphical programming tool to design and run computer simulations of a power plant: just connect some predefined building blocks, input some simulation parameters in each block and voilà! Except that the simulations quickly started to require hundreds of said building blocks, so that my coworkers spent their days clicking around only to start over when we needed to use different simulation parameters. Got trained a few hours on how to use the graphical tool but couldn't accept I now had to click and input numbers all day long... Somehow found that an old user manual actually existed and discovered that I could instead write plain text files to specify the computer simulations. It used a very verbose ad-hoc language so I wrote a Python script to generate the files I needed and when the requirements changed I could redefine the simulation in minutes instead of days. Later got fired for being some sort of troublemaker but I now work as a fullstack dev in Python and Javascript.

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#272
post #257

I was once at a company (X) that acquired another company (Y), and Y's main product was a graphical programming tool. Y advertised that their tool could speed application development up 10x. My (nontechnical) manager asked me "why don't you use Y's tool to build the project you're currently working on?" I answered with the following metaphor: Imagine you have to pick a bike to go on a trip. You're travelling on a wel…

Reminds me of a similar situation with my technical manager. He’s very dogmatic in that we should never waste time “re-inventing the wheel” (e.g. there’s already a library/tool out there that does X, don’t waste time remaking it). This makes a lot of sense in many business cases, but not always... I like using this analogy to demonstrate why: Say we’re designing a race car, and our race car needs wheels. “Wait!” says…

The problem is sometimes you get the converse where developers have the "not invented here" mentality. I interviewed at a shop one time where they had built their own JS framework. Mind you this was a financial shop not a tech shop. They bellied up about 2 years after I interviewed with them and I cannot help but reason that they had "tech gone wild" as one of the reasons. The CEO fashioned his company as the Google of the financial industry but in the end they where a bunch of developers stroking their ego.

It is a balancing act, a lot of times building on what exists is the best case but when it comes to your core competency and what distinguishes your business, that is where one should focus their development efforts. If you are rewriting Postgres you will just end up with a shittier database.

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#273

I was once at a company (X) that acquired another company (Y), and Y's main product was a graphical programming tool. Y advertised that their tool could speed application development up 10x. My (nontechnical) manager asked me "why don't you use Y's tool to build the project you're currently working on?" I answered with the following metaphor: Imagine you have to pick a bike to go on a trip. You're travelling on a wel…

All you've said is 100% true, but in addition I'd argue that a big part of reason why no-code tools don't get more traction is also just the simple power of habit and the lack of motivation to invest time into learning it. We already know how to build things the traditional way, and all these no-code solutions require learning a lot of new, proprietary interfaces and stuff, playing with it and figuring it out, learni…

I don’t have enough experience with no-code tools either, but I don’t agree it’s motivation that prevents it from taking off.

No-code is used mostly by non-technical founders who do seem quite motivated (enough to do it themselves).

Engineers are more likely to build it themselves (realistically, over-engineer).

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#274
No code has been a thing for a long time. I don't think we need to be so defensive, though. The limitations of this approach haven't changed in the decades since its first inception.

I think it's a little ignorant and short sighted to speak down on the current trend. The reality is, there used to be a whole host of no-code products that solved a whole host of problems. We haven't outgrown those problems, but the solutions we had didn't scale well with the technologies we use today.

We need similar tools to those that we had before, updated and adapted for modern technology. Some of the new tools go a step further, which is incredible. Think about every aunt and uncle who have an idea that would solve a problem they and 10 of their friends have. Those 11 people are super stoked about the tool that Aunt Linda built. Why can't we let them have that?

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#275

I was once at a company (X) that acquired another company (Y), and Y's main product was a graphical programming tool. Y advertised that their tool could speed application development up 10x. My (nontechnical) manager asked me "why don't you use Y's tool to build the project you're currently working on?" I answered with the following metaphor: Imagine you have to pick a bike to go on a trip. You're travelling on a wel…

The trouble with this analogy is that at some point an ATV comes along that’s much faster both on and off the road, but you’re still clinging to x86 because it’s more powerful than the “high level” languages like C.

I generally agree with you, but I also suspect there’s a lot of room to improve the tools and it’s not always obvious when something is a paradigm shift in productivity or a dead end that will only work in tightly constrained use cases.

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#276
The article mentions that, if you are not free to go, then the police must read you your Miranda rights. This appears to be a common understanding as well.

However, other sources I've read state that police don't necessarily have to do this unless they want your testimony to be court-admissable (https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/police-questioning-m...).

So I'm a bit confused - could someone clear this up for me?

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#277
Disclaimer: I work at a low-code startup.

If anyone discounts nocode/lowcode they are missing the forest for the trees.

NoCode always existed, the term is getting popular now. Wordpress is a nocode website builder.

When you hit a 3rd party API, you are reducing a part of the problem to nocode. Would you care if the API was written in C/Java/Python or was a Zapier interface?

Can nocode/lowcode reduce bottlenecks or speed up developer of critical but not urgent things/components definitely.

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#278
post #64
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is really cool. How did you go about designing the language. Did you go for a full lexer and parser ? or it was more functional. Curious to understand how you built it.

Ruby's super power is it's meta programming ability. So they were really just writing Ruby. If you google, I think there's a bunch of tutorials out there for creating a DSL in Ruby... but I learned from a book called "Metaprogramming Ruby"

Very cool. Reminds me of the Ruby DSL for music performance: https://sonic-pi.net/

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#279
post #276

The article mentions that, if you are not free to go, then the police must read you your Miranda rights. This appears to be a common understanding as well. However, other sources I've read state that police don't necessarily have to do this unless they want your testimony to be court-admissable ( https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/police-questioning-m... ). So I'm a bit confused - could someone clear this up for…

In the US - See https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/police-questioning-m... for example.

Read carefully and you will notice:

- they don't have to Mirandize you even if arrested or detained. If they don't, your answers and evidence based on them will probably be inadmissible, if your lawyer is not an incompetent boob.

- they don't have to Mirandize you at all with no penalty unless you are detained or arrested. If you are "free to go", for example if asked a question at a traffic stop, Miranda is irrelevant. What you say will always be used against you.

- always, in all circumstances, assume that your statements WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU.

- At a traffic stop, you say "here is my license and registration" and "please, thank you, have a nice day". NOTHING else, which is quite a bit harder to do than it sounds.

When in an adversarial position with the police, it's best to remember that it is literally not their job to be helping you. It's not their job to be "fair" or to be your ally. They are ALLOWED TO LIE to your face, and might do so.

But the rest of the time, which is most of it, they are your ally. You will know which time is which - act accordingly. In all cases, respect is wise, is warranted, and is well deserved. Remember the number of our friends in blue who have died because of some bad person. And note that until they understand you, they may quite reasonably assume you are one. Don't be an A-hole and prove it to them. Don't lie, it would be obvious, suspicious, and insulting. Just say nothing or shrug. Don't be a dick and try to argue - save that for the courtroom which is when it is appropriate.

But you still don't ever have to say things like "Gee I thought I was only doing 80" or "I didn't see that guy, he musta came outa nowhere"...

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#280
post #272
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of a similar situation with my technical manager. He’s very dogmatic in that we should never waste time “re-inventing the wheel” (e.g. there’s already a library/tool out there that does X, don’t waste time remaking it). This makes a lot of sense in many business cases, but not always... I like using this analogy to demonstrate why: Say we’re designing a race car, and our race car needs wheels. “Wait!” says…

The problem is sometimes you get the converse where developers have the "not invented here" mentality. I interviewed at a shop one time where they had built their own JS framework. Mind you this was a financial shop not a tech shop. They bellied up about 2 years after I interviewed with them and I cannot help but reason that they had "tech gone wild" as one of the reasons. The CEO fashioned his company as the Google…

Totally agree it's a balancing act. Sometimes the existing tool is exactly what you need, in which it would be a waste to re-invent it. Ideally though, things should be evaluated case by case, rather than sticking to a dogma.

I just happen to work at a company that's experienced the flip side of your experience. We ended up wasting millions on software some managers thought fit our needs. However, turns out it really didn't fit our needs after all was said and done, and they said if they had known everything up front (rather than what the salesman had said) they wouldn't have bought the software in the first place.

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