I was once at a company (X) that acquired another company (Y), and Y's main product was a graphical programming tool. Y advertised that their tool could speed application development up 10x. My (nontechnical) manager asked me "why don't you use Y's tool to build the project you're currently working on?" I answered with the following metaphor: Imagine you have to pick a bike to go on a trip. You're travelling on a wel…
The “No Code” Delusion
241–250 of 334 posts
Re: The “No Code” Delusion
#242I think those with a programming background take terms like "no code" far too literally. For those who've worked in finance IT, you may know of staff who've build incredibly elaborate models in Excel, and then have come to you when they need something that can't be done in Excel. "No code platforms" will likely work the same way. These platforms provide just enough interactive/dynamic functionality for non-programmer…
I have spent 5 years on and off in the no code space and IMHO you're almost spot on. Almost all standard enterprise platforms are non complex and can be delivered in no code solutions, requiring maybe 5pc as real code. Failing to acknowledge this is why IT organisations in large enterprises are typically sidelined by shadow IT teams, who often deliver great solutions in Excel and Oracle Apex.
You _always_ need code. Some customers don't need much, but they all need _some_.
The first example that comes to mind is duplicate detection. Sure, the basics are simple. No two agreements of the same kind for the same customer. A lot of no-code solutions struggle at this point.
But then you get to the slightly more complex requirements. You _can_ have two agreements of the same kind for the same customer, as long as they are not overlapping in time. But if customer B is a subsidiary of A, and A already has the agreement, then B cannot have its own, if A's agreement is marked "company-wide". This also goes for C, which is a subsidiary of B.
I've yet to see a no-code solution that makes this sort of thing accessible to non-programmers. And programmers will prefer just writing the code.
Re: The “No Code” Delusion
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm compelled to invoke the "Ninety-Ninety" rule when I hear about solutions like that, although I'm sure it works sometimes, in my experience it usually turns out more like this. The first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time, and the remaining 10% of the work takes the other 90% of the time!
Isn't the majority of software following this rule ? This is not specific of low/no code environment
In other words, the 80/20 rule says the last 20% takes 4x as long as the first 80%. In comparison, the above quote says the last 10% takes just as long as the first 90%. So slightly different.
Re: The “No Code” Delusion
#244I've spent a long time trying to build "No Code" solutions. Probably 3 different products, 3 different companies. But once, I tried something different. I pushed back, instead I proposed we build a domain specific language using Ruby. I already had some trust with my boss... and he was pretty convinced it was going to fail, he had zero faith these smart (but non-technical) users could successfully use it. But he was…
Learning a skill takes time and tenacity. Years ago, I tried to learn guitar, but gave up after a few months because progress was too slow for me. I was impatient and not motivated enough and therefore ultimately didn’t get anywhere. Two years ago, I decided I wanted to learn sleight of hand card “magic”. There was one flourish in particular that I just couldn’t do, but I kept trying anyway. Day after day, I couldn’t do it and then one day I realised I could. The only difference between that and guitar is that I kept at it and out the effort in.
Sure, some people are predisposed to certain things which is a bit of a shortcut (I definitely found programming easier to learn than card magic), but I believe that most people can learn most things, if they have sufficient motivation and put in the time and effort (I include finding a way that works for you as part if effort, just doing something repeatedly may not be enough on its own, as they say: “practice makes permanent; perfect practice makes perfect” — ie be careful of learning bad habits that may get in your way)
I’m personally not against visual programming and have had some good experiences with it, but the name “no code” in my opinion completely misses the point: its still code (and programming). The text was never the hardest part, so by eliminating that, you’re not really winning much. The hard part is the logic, calculations, data manipulation and translating ambiguous requirements given by people who don’t really know what they want. Very little of my day to day is actually about the text I type into my editor, but rather the problem solving that goes on in my mind. Visual languages don’t magically make that go away, they just represent the code in a different form. Sometimes this can be really useful (visual languages make flow explicit and I personally tend to think in “boxes and lines” anyway), but often thats not the biggest roadblock. Often the roadblock isn’t the code at all.
[1] https://www.tradingview.com/pine-script-docs/en/v4/index.htm...
Re: The “No Code” Delusion
#245I was once at a company (X) that acquired another company (Y), and Y's main product was a graphical programming tool. Y advertised that their tool could speed application development up 10x. My (nontechnical) manager asked me "why don't you use Y's tool to build the project you're currently working on?" I answered with the following metaphor: Imagine you have to pick a bike to go on a trip. You're travelling on a wel…
What you need is a speed bike that lets you switch to a mountain bike when you decide you need/want to go off the trail. That is, a "no code" or graphical or whatever whizz-bang tool that lets you drop into C++ or Python or Lisp or whatever when you need to. And to do this, it needs to be better than JNI in Java. It needs to be able to have something better than a gouge-your-eyeballs-out-ugly syntax for interfacing t…
Re: The “No Code” Delusion
#246Re: The “No Code” Delusion
#247I've spent a long time trying to build "No Code" solutions. Probably 3 different products, 3 different companies. But once, I tried something different. I pushed back, instead I proposed we build a domain specific language using Ruby. I already had some trust with my boss... and he was pretty convinced it was going to fail, he had zero faith these smart (but non-technical) users could successfully use it. But he was…
I second this. People can go very, very far with simple and sand boxed Domain Specific Languages that are targeted towards the core function. There are so many commercial successes for this approach: CAD, MATLAB, Simulink, LabVIEW, Dymola, Excel (?) The biggest issue with many of these tools is that they tend to be closed source, proprietary formats, onerous licensing terms, not easily extended and aren't easy to dep…
Re: The “No Code” Delusion
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
> because otherwise they "know" that it is too difficult. This is something that frustrates me in general, and I'm sure others, too: That there seems to be among a certain population of people a mindset that declares failure before they've even tried. Or, they try, but at the first hint of failure or trouble, they declare that they can't do it, and stop. So what is different about those people who don't do this? Why…
My suspicion is that it's not really that they aren't capable of programming, they just find it boring and would rather be doing something else.
Most people don’t care enough though and life’s too short to spend on something when other things are more important to you.
Re: The “No Code” Delusion
#249Re: The “No Code” Delusion
#250My response to "No Code" solutions: If there was a faster and easier way to develop software, we would be doing it. We are already using the easiest to understand tools we can find to develop the best software possible. There is no secret programmer cabal where we are holding hostage the REAL tools we use to develop software, and we keep them secret and hidden while we fuck around every day. For someone to develop a…
First, without a huge amount of collusion, somebody would release the cure to beat everyone else's treatment. (Which totally does happen.) And in software, people constantly build and release tools for free while decrying paid software as evil; if neither Stallman nor Oracle is offering something, you can't bet they don't have it.
Second, making these things is hard. If you talk to programmers, we link to Programming Sucks and complain about how bad our tools are and how most software is terrible. If you talk to biochemists, you'll hear all about FDA hurdles, the rising cost and difficulty of finding new drugs worth bringing to market, and how they want to find real breakthroughs but companies can't afford speculative research.
So it can't really be the case that people are just casually choosing not to produce these things. Maybe there's a vast conspiracy that nobody's leaking, even when they're drunk and complaining about work at 2AM. But if it's not that, it has to be that we just don't know how to make this stuff happen.