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The “No Code” Delusion

alexhudson.com

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Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#231

Post by goatlover »

brazzy wrote: post #222
zokier wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Around 1960 some people seriously claimed that within about 5 years there would be no more professional programmers because with this new language, everyone could write the software they need themselves, since it was so easy to use. Of course that prediction seems quaint now, but I posit that the prediction failed because they greatly underestimated the increase in demand of software as much as overestimated the ex…

Yes, given that back then people were typically working in assembler (with frequently changing platforms, to boot) and writing relatively simple data processing applications, the claim is somewhat understandable. But I think the main thing it failed to take into account is more how hard it is to translate business requirements into complete and unambiguous instructions.

The even bigger thing is how better tools and abstraction create more demand for code, as more can be done. The entire history of computers has seen software demand increase over time.

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#232

Post by bcrosby95 »

flarg wrote: post #213
rchaud wrote: post #202

I think those with a programming background take terms like "no code" far too literally. For those who've worked in finance IT, you may know of staff who've build incredibly elaborate models in Excel, and then have come to you when they need something that can't be done in Excel. "No code platforms" will likely work the same way. These platforms provide just enough interactive/dynamic functionality for non-programmer…

I have spent 5 years on and off in the no code space and IMHO you're almost spot on. Almost all standard enterprise platforms are non complex and can be delivered in no code solutions, requiring maybe 5pc as real code. Failing to acknowledge this is why IT organisations in large enterprises are typically sidelined by shadow IT teams, who often deliver great solutions in Excel and Oracle Apex.

"Shadow IT" teams are great at delivering solutions quickly because their clients tends to be themselves. When you're writing solutions for your own problems you're cutting out multiple communication layers which will reduce the effort involved by several orders of magnitude. Also by not making it an "official" project you can cut through lots of red tape and requirements not related to the problem at hand.

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#233

Post by coffee »

rchaud wrote: post #202

I think those with a programming background take terms like "no code" far too literally. For those who've worked in finance IT, you may know of staff who've build incredibly elaborate models in Excel, and then have come to you when they need something that can't be done in Excel. "No code platforms" will likely work the same way. These platforms provide just enough interactive/dynamic functionality for non-programmer…

> I think those with a programming background take terms like "no code" far too literally.

Agreed. Poor term. But what these platforms can accomplish is liberating for those who can't code yet want to get something live on their own.

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#234

Post by sytringy05 »

statictype wrote: post #72

This rings very true. We sell an integration platform-as-a-service[1] and it offers a 'low code' visual environment to stitch together integrations. But from pretty much the start, we built-in support to drop down to Javascript to build logic and we think we hit a sweet spot there. You can visually string together most components but drop in a bit of script to concisely define some hairy transformation or complex log…

+1,000,000

As the article points out, the problem with these is they are sold as a silver bullet and companies who don't know any better will spend millions building putting a lot of code in the script nodes on their "low code" platform.

Code that can't be unit tested properly, that has at best some really crappy tools for automation and limitations that drive everybody crazy (ie getting logs into es/splunk or whatever - syslog UDP over the internet ftw!)

You are clearly a responsible vendor, I wish the others I deal would be honest with their customers about what the low codes do well vs what they dont

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#235

Post by spacechild1 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #170
sequoia wrote: post #140

I was once at a company (X) that acquired another company (Y), and Y's main product was a graphical programming tool. Y advertised that their tool could speed application development up 10x. My (nontechnical) manager asked me "why don't you use Y's tool to build the project you're currently working on?" I answered with the following metaphor: Imagine you have to pick a bike to go on a trip. You're travelling on a wel…

What you need is a speed bike that lets you switch to a mountain bike when you decide you need/want to go off the trail. That is, a "no code" or graphical or whatever whizz-bang tool that lets you drop into C++ or Python or Lisp or whatever when you need to. And to do this, it needs to be better than JNI in Java. It needs to be able to have something better than a gouge-your-eyeballs-out-ugly syntax for interfacing t…

This is what I get from Pure Data (a graphical audio programming language). Once things get too unweildly, I write a C/C++ extension or Lua script.

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#236

Post by Twirrim »

I've luckily missed all the "no code" stuff. This has so many shades of that "no ops" nonsense that was being peddled about 5-10 years ago, which seems to be rooted in similar misunderstandings.

If you want to run your company on a "no code" basis, good luck with that! I'm sure your Finance and product managers won't complain at all when they have their VBA macros taken away.

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#237

Post by Stratoscope »

swalsh wrote: post #64
pklee wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is really cool. How did you go about designing the language. Did you go for a full lexer and parser ? or it was more functional. Curious to understand how you built it.

Ruby's super power is it's meta programming ability. So they were really just writing Ruby. If you google, I think there's a bunch of tutorials out there for creating a DSL in Ruby... but I learned from a book called "Metaprogramming Ruby"

Thanks for the book recommendation, I am eager to read it.

I looked on Amazon but there are only used paperbacks and no Kindle edition. But I saw from the cover that it was a Pragmatic Press book, so looked for it there and they have a no-DRM ebook of the second edition - for a lot less money than the used copies on Amazon!

https://pragprog.com/book/ppmetr2/metaprogramming-ruby-2

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#238

Post by coffee »

markmiro wrote: post #155

I like to think of the no-code stuff like this: - People who are into this stuff know there's something to it, but as a movement, we don't know exactly what it is. - My personal feeling is that any no-code tool should be useful enough that I would use it. I want some no-code to make me feel for my career a bit. - The "threat", I think, is very real. For example, whenever I see myself following a set of rules to write…

> I want some no-code to make me feel for my career a bit.

It sounds like your career is software engineering, if so...

> My personal feeling is that any no-code tool should be useful enough that I would use it.

Someone who's a software engineer is not the litmus test.

These tools, from what I've seen so far, are NOT for software engineers.

So you wouldn't need to use them.

Instead, from what I've seen so far, these tools are primarily for those folks who:

- Cannot write software - Do not want to learn how to write software (gasp!)

But DO want to put their (software) ideas out in the world, have control over them, without:

- Spending the money to hire a software engineer - Partner with a software engineer

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#239

Post by ksdale »

zokier wrote: post #172
brazzy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pipe dream is far older than that. Around 1960 some people seriously claimed that within about 5 years there would be no more professional programmers because with this new language, everyone could write the software they need themselves, since it was so easy to use. The language was COBOL. Oh, and look, this one still seems to be around: http://www.makeyourownsoftware.com/

> Around 1960 some people seriously claimed that within about 5 years there would be no more professional programmers because with this new language, everyone could write the software they need themselves, since it was so easy to use. Of course that prediction seems quaint now, but I posit that the prediction failed because they greatly underestimated the increase in demand of software as much as overestimated the ex…

This reminds me of the Jevons paradox from economics. The story is that when steam engines became way more efficient, the demand for coal exploded. Even though each engine used much less energy, the total amount of energy consumed went through the roof.

Re: The “No Code” Delusion

#240

Post by [deleted] »

lucasverra wrote: post #139
yebyen wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm compelled to invoke the "Ninety-Ninety" rule when I hear about solutions like that, although I'm sure it works sometimes, in my experience it usually turns out more like this. The first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time, and the remaining 10% of the work takes the other 90% of the time!

Isn't the majority of software following this rule ? This is not specific of low/no code environment

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