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The Status of HTTP/3

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21–30 of 123 posts

Re: The Status of HTTP/3

#21
post #11

This article omits that Caddy has had long-running experimental support for HTTP/3 for a couple of years now: https://caddyserver.com/docs/json/apps/http/servers/experime...

Caddy's strange official binary licencing did them no favours. The licensing makes more sense now but they are off people's radar.

Re: The Status of HTTP/3

#22
post #16

I hate to be a curmudgeon, but I can't help but think that designing a new service over UDP isn't the best idea. DNS has been fighting off wave after wave of attack vectors, some that realistically cannot even be fixed. Making it immune to these vectors is going to look a lot like a slapped together TCP over UDP...

Totally agree with you. Many big corporations totally block UDP at ISP level because there is no easy/magic solutions against amplified DDoS. They usually use some internal backend for DNS, Ntp, routed through other ISP.

I am afraid that businesses that will host HTTP/3 will be less secure in terms of availavility.

Re: The Status of HTTP/3

#24
post #16

I hate to be a curmudgeon, but I can't help but think that designing a new service over UDP isn't the best idea. DNS has been fighting off wave after wave of attack vectors, some that realistically cannot even be fixed. Making it immune to these vectors is going to look a lot like a slapped together TCP over UDP...

It is slapped together TCP over UDP. They would rather have made it over IP but protocol ossification has made that impossible.

Don't think of it being UDP as anything more than "it happens to go through existing infrastructure without any or much work"

Re: The Status of HTTP/3

#25
post #18
post #4

Because QIC is UDP based, Chrome first runs a race with TCP just in case you're sitting behind some device that blocks UDP. I wonder how much bandwidth this will waste globally.

Isn't that like any device behind NAT?

Yes. NAT, firewalls with admins that don't know what QUIC is, various corporate MITM boxes, etc.

Re: The Status of HTTP/3

#26
post #18
post #4

Because QIC is UDP based, Chrome first runs a race with TCP just in case you're sitting behind some device that blocks UDP. I wonder how much bandwidth this will waste globally.

Isn't that like any device behind NAT?

Most NAT still allows UDP hole-punching (STUN/TURN/ICE) unless specifically blocked (which a depressing number still do).

Re: The Status of HTTP/3

#27
post #16

I hate to be a curmudgeon, but I can't help but think that designing a new service over UDP isn't the best idea. DNS has been fighting off wave after wave of attack vectors, some that realistically cannot even be fixed. Making it immune to these vectors is going to look a lot like a slapped together TCP over UDP...

Totally agree with you. Many big corporations totally block UDP at ISP level because there is no easy/magic solutions against amplified DDoS. They usually use some internal backend for DNS, Ntp, routed through other ISP. I am afraid that businesses that will host HTTP/3 will be less secure in terms of availavility.

The fact that many corps block UDP doesn't have anything to do with the necessity of QUIC. QUIC is on top of UDP because we tried with SCTP, but is never coming.

For people who have reasonably configured UDP, it offers a benefit; the fact that some people have broken UDP is neither here nor there. HTTP/2 continues to be an option for TCP-only networks.

Re: The Status of HTTP/3

#28
post #11

This article omits that Caddy has had long-running experimental support for HTTP/3 for a couple of years now: https://caddyserver.com/docs/json/apps/http/servers/experime...

Caddy's strange official binary licencing did them no favours. The licensing makes more sense now but they are off people's radar.

This might change with Caddy 2.0.

Re: The Status of HTTP/3

#29
post #16

I hate to be a curmudgeon, but I can't help but think that designing a new service over UDP isn't the best idea. DNS has been fighting off wave after wave of attack vectors, some that realistically cannot even be fixed. Making it immune to these vectors is going to look a lot like a slapped together TCP over UDP...

It's fun to see how we kind of reinvented goold old DNS as soon as we use HTTP/3 for DoH. It runs on UDP, but with HTTP in between (and encrypted, of course). We could have done that with DNS itself, but somehow this never gained traction.

Re: The Status of HTTP/3

#30
post #16

I hate to be a curmudgeon, but I can't help but think that designing a new service over UDP isn't the best idea. DNS has been fighting off wave after wave of attack vectors, some that realistically cannot even be fixed. Making it immune to these vectors is going to look a lot like a slapped together TCP over UDP...

Forget the narrow waist of the internet; this is the spaghetti ball of the internet.

It violates all of the encapsulation and decoupling principles you learned about as a CS undergrad.

If you have a better transport layer, fine. Make a better transport layer. But rolling the whole thing is the best way to ensure nothing will ever get done.

HTTP/3 is the new IPv6.

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