Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#131

Post by SllX » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 10:31 PM UTC

JorgeGT wrote: post #119

SllX wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but a bank can still terminate its business with you. It just has to return your money to you. Now if you’re suggesting we have a law that companies which hold our data have to return our data when they terminate their business relationship with us, I wouldn’t necessarily disagree.

The legal obligations of a bank towards its clients generally extend way beyond your example, depending on the country, but yes, returning the client belongings upon termination of the relationship should be a basic right mandated by law. I think it is profoundly absurd that we are renouncing hard-fought consumer rights just because business is now being conducted electronically. If the letter of the law no longer ma…

I think we agree more than we disagree. Thank you for your time.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#132

Post by SllX » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 10:33 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #124

SllX wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence is inherently physical. It is the forceful physical violation of one’s person or property. Trying to expand the definition of “violence” beyond this scope dilutes its meaning beyond recognition and usefulness. However, I will agree it is harmful when a supplier terminates its services, particularly so if you were dependent on that supplier. People make their own choices about who to do business with and how…

Say there are sanctions imposed on a country by the U.S. that make it near impossible to import the necessary mediacations for cancer patients, as a result of which, some of them die. I'd say calling that 'economic violence' is pretty accurate.

A trade sanction is intended as a form of physical violence backed up by physical force. You could call it economic violence, I would just call it violence.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#133

Post by SllX » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 10:40 PM UTC

banads wrote: post #105

SllX wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between a sovereign nation-state and a corporation is that a nation-state has a legal monopoly on sanctioned violence within their jurisdiction. Those constitutional safeguards are necessary because otherwise they could search, seize, detain, arrest, imprison, torture and kill with impunity. A tech company can deplatform you with impunity, but they’re not inflicting any real violence in the process. Co…

>A tech company can deplatform you with impunity, but they’re not inflicting any real violence in the process. Corporations are still agents of real people, and those people are still subject to the laws of nations. The influence of Twitter on say, the Arab Spring, says differently. Or the many other cases of social media platforms and algorithms being used to incite mobs, riots, and revolutions. Hatred is a prime in…

What we are discussing here is not whether a platform which enables people to communicate can be used to incite and coordinate violence, of course it can!

We’re discussing whether deplatforming a person from a private social media platform or video distribution platform is a form of violence.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#134

Post by SllX » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 10:43 PM UTC

aj7 wrote: post #116

SllX wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shift your perspective. YouTube is a video distribution service provider and one of many ways to publish a video. You can choose to publish on YouTube, but you don’t have the right to compel YouTube to do business with you anymore than a coffee shop has a right to compel their current coffee roaster to do business with them. If YouTube cancels their contract with you, they’ve taken away your ability to make a living…

Maybe we should make you persona non grata at the three largest supermarket chains in your area, plus Walmart and Amazon. You can get your meals at Burger King and 7-11.

I see your angle, but that would still leave me with countless other places to purchase groceries, any one of which could choose not to do business with me.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#135

Post by AsyncAwait » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 11:04 PM UTC

SllX wrote: post #132

AsyncAwait wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say there are sanctions imposed on a country by the U.S. that make it near impossible to import the necessary mediacations for cancer patients, as a result of which, some of them die. I'd say calling that 'economic violence' is pretty accurate.

A trade sanction is intended as a form of physical violence backed up by physical force. You could call it economic violence, I would just call it violence.

Am glad to hear that, I'd actually agree with you, but many wouldn't because of that thin layer of 'we didn't technically use the military to accomplish this', but rather the global financial system, even if the outcome is basically the same

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#136

Post by mtm7 » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 12:05 AM UTC

mark_l_watson wrote: post #127

mtm7 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting. Can you suggest any books or articles about the power climb?

Too many. As a liberal I still find conservatives Kevin D. Williams (The Smallest Minority, Independant Thinking in the Era of the Mob) and James Rikards (Currency Wars, Aftermath, etc.) to be interesting and useful. Then there is Thomas Piketty (Capital in the 21st Century), Douglas Rushkoff (Throwing Rocks at the Google Bus). Anyway, these few were enjoyably, but a warning: I have loaned books by the first two cons…

Thanks — I'll give these a try! Each year, I try to read a handful of books that expand my world views, so these sound great. :)

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#137

Post by olliej » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 12:12 AM UTC

As opposed to the Catholic Church? Oil companies? A number of retailers?

Beating up tech companies specifically is getting irksome. There are many things wrong with our industry specifically, but beating them up over something true of many industries is .

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#138

Post by SllX » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 12:50 AM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #135

SllX wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A trade sanction is intended as a form of physical violence backed up by physical force. You could call it economic violence, I would just call it violence.

Am glad to hear that, I'd actually agree with you, but many wouldn't because of that thin layer of 'we didn't technically use the military to accomplish this', but rather the global financial system, even if the outcome is basically the same

They might not, but for a sanction to be applied properly, you need to apply violence somewhere within the enforcement process.

Take the sanctions against Iran for example. Huawei violated these sanctions and this directly led to Meng Wanzhou’s arrest in Canada and her bring charged in the United States. It would appear the extradition hearings are still going on with the trial set to start this month and it might go as long as October.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#139

Post by Twixes » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 12:53 AM UTC

bsanr2 wrote: post #71

tasogare wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory yes, but it takes a government with "balls" to take this kind of stance. Big companies owners and leaders are from the same schools, eat at the same table, are friends with the politician ruling class. One government might take action against a foreign company because it is foreign, yet allows the same behavior from a domestic company. Ultimately the people need to cut some heads to remember them what is th…

What's worse: big company owners and big financiers are from the same schools, etc. It's not unheard of for a nation that's threatened an overreaching company with sanctions or nationalization to find itself facing a coup, or shut out of an advantageous (read: actually workable) stake in the world monetary establishment. In fact, that's basically the modern history of the southern hemisphere. You don't get to play un…

Well, American oligarchs can spend a lot of money and effort to prevent someone like Bernie Sanders from getting elected president

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#140

Post by wolfgke » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 1:09 AM UTC

adventured wrote: post #109

culturestate wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... nice one Jony ... design a brave and “beautiful” open plan workspace for a paranoiacally secretive organisation. I feel like it's worth pointing out that Steve Jobs was still running Apple when this building was designed. I don't work for Norman Foster so I have no way to know how much changed internally after he died, but I doubt the balance shifted too wildly given the logistical constraints of massive constr…

Steve Jobs described the whole point to the design: he wanted people to frequently bump into each other, rather than being hidden away in private offices. He noted it was one of his favorite aspects of the Pixar office. It's strange that anybody would blame Jony Ive for a design that Jobs chose. Jobs took what he thought worked about Pixar's office to spur creativity & innovation, and used it in building the new Appl…

> Steve Jobs described the whole point to the design: he wanted people to frequently bump into each other, rather than being hidden away in private offices. He noted it was one of his favorite aspects of the Pixar office. It's strange that anybody would blame Jony Ive for a design that Jobs chose. Jobs took what he thought worked about Pixar's office to spur creativity & innovation, and used it in building the new Apple campus design.

Perhaps it spurs creativity and innovation, but only few programming activities are highly creative and innovative. Rather to me, programming is about writing bug-free code. In this sense, I tend to compare programming activities with Air Traffic Control.