Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay • Hacker News Board

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#481

Post by 7thaccount » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

HammockWarrior wrote: post #456

pdimitar wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could be but I am not so sure. There is something I've seen in at least 10 organisations I worked for: middle managers are afraid their budgets will be reduced if they fire someone and never re-hire the position, so they actively go out of their way to think of a very niche and, yes, bullshitty, activity for them to do. Seen it happen many times and it made me cynical about the whole "there are no bullshit jobs" meme…

In my job I see that the managers are focused on automation to cut lower status jobs but I never see them questioning whether anyone in the huge hierarchy of managers is necessary. I think this is because if they question other managers, their own job might be called into question as well. Also, managers tend to think that managing is an important job.

It is indeed a vicious cycle.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#482

Post by carlmr » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

hacknat wrote: post #465

contingencies wrote: post #274

We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because,…

Also it is a total lie and a very narrow definition of utility. Arguably, we’ve actually under priced some of the most important labor in our society (caregivers, teachers, social workers, etc), and over priced some of the dumbest (sorry, but if Uber disappeared tomorrow, society would be moderately inconvenienced, but little else). Finally, nothing in evolutionary biology teaches us that human beings ought to work.…

>if Uber disappeared tomorrow, society would be moderately inconvenienced, but little else

If you inconvenience 100 million people by costing them 15 minutes more a day, or a few dollars more for lack of competition, then the cost per person may be low, but the cost altogether will be high.

This is the essential problem I see with the articles, they say so many jobs are useless, but often they're useful but only a small part of what is visible.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#483

Post by AdrianB1 » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

papeda wrote: post #341

subject117 wrote: post #330

Work, save up, start a business of your own choosing. So many excuses for those unable to achieve this simple formula that our forefathers fought and died for us to have the right to.

I’m skeptical that America’s forefathers envisioned a future where a reasonable degree of financial security is exclusively for business-owners.

At that time, financial security did not exist at all (or almost). There was no social safety net, no food stamps, no tax to redistribute. There was no reason to envision there will ever be different.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#484

Post by hacknat » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #308

tempsy wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? No it’s not. He is exactly right that we’ve invented a lot of “bullshit jobs” that don’t add anything of value to society and would not change anything if they were gone tomorrow e.g. How many jobs out there just prop up rent seeking?

The whole idea of “bullshit jobs” is ignorant. You’ve got armies of managers and bean counters trying to squeeze nickels out of processes, and yet we are supposed to believe that we’re keeping all of these people employed for no reason? It’s the same sort of juvenile thinking that causes someone to look at a vast legacy codebase and decide “oh we could easily rewrite that.” The reality is that automation is progressi…

If you ever have worked at a failed startup than you had a “bullshit” job. Bullshit jobs aren’t all bad, they are necessary hypotheses in the productivity market. The problem with them comes when institutions invert their competency hierarchy (this can happen shockingly fast, just ask an ex-Yahoo employee) and lose their ability to excise the bullshit. Bullshit jobs easily become institutionalized. It is all about managing risk. By the time an organization has a bunch of bullshit jobs the people that could tell management who is who are all long gone.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#485

Post by carlmr » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

hacknat wrote: post #477

threatofrain wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the thing is if the markets really couldn't find any value in the output of nearly everyone, we shouldn't see this high percentage of employment -- not unless one also believes that employers in a decentralised way are implementing their own informal UBI, perhaps out of consensus on political theory or moral values. One might say a simpler explanation is that employee output is still interesting, and that what's…

Most companies operate within a market, but don’t, themselves, operate like a market (internally). Have you really not heard any duck and cover stories from corporate America? It absolutely is easy for incompetent people to remain employed. Talented people tend to job hop to realize their increased utility (not always, but mostly), while incompetence gets promoted at the 50% of companies that cannot compete in the la…

Also not to forget a middle manager may want the feeling of power, which they could derive from having more people below them.

Humans aren't rational.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#486

Post by runninganyways » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #312

> We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living No, what we must absolutely do away with is the specious notion that when you take from the productive and give to the unproductive, the productive will keep producing out of the goodness of their hearts. Every attempt at forming a collectivist utopia fails, and that's because collectivism runs contrary to human nature. All atte…

The productive like the people who do slave labor in China to produce all of our gadgets?

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#487

Post by contingencies » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #467

contingencies wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You present a false (and somewhat offensive) dichotomy. Here are some more optimistic ideas. If we reconsidered vehicles, everyone could have access to them when desired. If we reconsidered city layouts, everyone could have a home with desired proximity to others without needing to sacrifice either nature or privacy. If we reconsidered education, medical care and communications infrastructure, they would be universal…

These ideas are beyond delusional (in today's world). > everyone could have access to [vehicles] when desired Uber is trying to do this, but has a lot of problems, from unpredictable pricing, surge pricing, long wait times, shitty drivers, chatty drivers (?), seats with puke all over them, ... self-driving cars could solve some, but not all of these problems. > everyone could have a home with desired proximity to oth…

It is true, perfection shall remain elusive. You can't please all of the people all of the time. That said, more equitable systems with far higher qualities in terms of environmental impact, resource consumption and sustainability, as well as fundamental service availability are clearly within reach.

You raise a particularly good point about the overall properties of systems for mass medical care, but people don't live forever. Cancer is one answer. Solutions that reduce or delay post-facto treatment with holistic and pre-emptive approaches (better regulation, better education, better diets/life choices) may be another.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#488

Post by m0zg » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

jswizzy wrote: post #327

Pay is going up despite all these ignorant commenters https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/03/upshot/minimum-wage-boost...

They aren't "ignorant". They just can't admit Donald Trump did something positive. So they engage in logical contortionism like "tax cuts didn't help the middle class" (they did), "low-earner wages aren't growing" (they are), "he will start WW3" (he won't - he's the least militarist president since Jimmy Carter), "low unemployment doesn't matter" (it does - how else do you expect to create upward pressure on wages?), "he's not building a wall" (in spite of total sabotage, the first 100 miles have already been completed).

And that's why he will get re-elected in 2020. The liberal bubble is too strong, and the majority of the US population aren't in it.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#489

Post by kelnos » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #279

The low unemployment rate is proof that this techno optimism isn’t true.

I think it proves -- or at least suggests -- the opposite of what you think. If we have low unemployment, but a lot of low-end jobs don't pay a living wage and people have to work multiple jobs at greater than 40 hours per week to make ends meet, that points to the work being so low-value that maybe it just doesn't need to be done, or that we'd be better served automating it.

The logical extreme in the opposite direction -- that our technology gets to the point where everything is automated and no one needs to do any kind of work -- suggests that we should be moving toward some form of universal basic income that provides for everyone's survival needs. People who want more than that can become skilled enough to do worthwhile jobs that provide meaningful income.

Obviously this won't be a panacea, and human nature will cause some people to be exploited while others are enriched, but this idea that life's purpose and meaning is just work work work work work is sad and nonsensical.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#490

Post by hacknat » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 9:18 PM UTC

carlmr wrote: post #482

hacknat wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also it is a total lie and a very narrow definition of utility. Arguably, we’ve actually under priced some of the most important labor in our society (caregivers, teachers, social workers, etc), and over priced some of the dumbest (sorry, but if Uber disappeared tomorrow, society would be moderately inconvenienced, but little else). Finally, nothing in evolutionary biology teaches us that human beings ought to work.…

>if Uber disappeared tomorrow, society would be moderately inconvenienced, but little else If you inconvenience 100 million people by costing them 15 minutes more a day, or a few dollars more for lack of competition, then the cost per person may be low, but the cost altogether will be high. This is the essential problem I see with the articles, they say so many jobs are useless, but often they're useful but only a sm…

Totally, but now play the same scenario in your head if all the social workers or teachers disappeared tomorrow. Uber would be a societal inconvenience, but losing all of our teachers would be a catastrophe.