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Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

brookings.edu

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Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#331

Post by turbinerneiter »

quotemstr wrote: post #312

> We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living No, what we must absolutely do away with is the specious notion that when you take from the productive and give to the unproductive, the productive will keep producing out of the goodness of their hearts. Every attempt at forming a collectivist utopia fails, and that's because collectivism runs contrary to human nature. All atte…

This isn't true. People do unpaid work all the time. Ask your mom. Humans have compassion. They want to cooperate and collaborate.

Also, right now, we have a system that takes from the productive (workers) and gives it to the unproductive (shareholders) - so please chose wisely which argument you want to make.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#333

Post by orangecat »

baddox wrote: post #301
orangecat wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is there are a lot of people in this position. Even if there are, that's not going to lower the unemployment rate significantly; it's more likely to raise it. Say there are 100 million people in the labor force, of which 4 million don't have jobs. The unemployment rate is 4% (4/100). Now 10 million previously retired people suddenly realize that they need to go back to work, and they all get hired instantly…

What is the mechanism to identify and count people who were voluntarily retired but now wish they could find a job but can’t?

If they're actively looking for work, then they're unemployed. If they're not looking for work because they assume there are no opportunities, they're "discouraged workers": https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/discouraged_worker.asp. Discouraged workers aren't counted in the primary unemployment rate, but are counted in U4 and U6, which are also historically low; see https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/U4RATE and https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/U6RATE.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#334

Post by simple_phrases »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #87

Labor market conditions are not acts of God, nor inevitable. They are shaped by policies, investments, and institutions. This is a point I keep trying to make about UBI and seemingly utterly failing. It isn't "inevitable" that automation will lead to high rates of chronic unemployment. I've been quiet of late on HN. I often am around Christmas time, but I also wonder if I'm just fed up with feeling like it's complete…

I agree with the vast majority of what you said. I have always valued your contributions here on HN and elsewhere on your blogs. Thank you for choosing to speak up.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#335

Post by jandrewrogers »

chinesempire wrote: post #259
jandrewrogers wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know multiple poor people that had their cancers cured without cost to themselves, no "emergency" required. The reality isn't as bleak as you are making it. The US has the highest cancer survival rate in the world, which would not be possible if poorer populations were not having their cancers proactively treated.

> The US has the highest cancer survival rate in the world No it doesn't. But even if it was true (and it isn't) you should also specify which type of cancer. No country gets every type of cancer better than any other. For example if we consider stomach cancer, South Korea is on top with 57.90% survival rate, USA is 30 points lower at 29.10% > which would not be possible if poorer populations were not having their ca…

You are cherrypicking, and conflating incidence (demographics) with survival rates (medical outcomes). The survival rate across all cancers in the US is around 70%. In the UK (since I work there and have the number handy), it is around 55%, which is a significant improvement for the UK in recent years.

Cancer incidence rates are primarily the product of genetics and environment, which is why it varies across countries. It has little to do with access to healthcare. Stanford hospital has given state-of-the-art treatment for both liver and stomach cancer for free to poor members of my family.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#336

Post by bryanrasmussen »

tempsy wrote: post #310
rayiner wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole idea of “bullshit jobs” is ignorant. You’ve got armies of managers and bean counters trying to squeeze nickels out of processes, and yet we are supposed to believe that we’re keeping all of these people employed for no reason? It’s the same sort of juvenile thinking that causes someone to look at a vast legacy codebase and decide “oh we could easily rewrite that.” The reality is that automation is progressi…

I’m not talking about service jobs. I wouldn’t consider service workers to be rent seekers at all. I’m actually referring to mostly white collar ones, a lot of administration jobs, finance, government, etc

These jobs may be bullshit in the feelings they induce in people performing them, or the meaning those people give their jobs, but they are probably not bullshit in the utility they have for the organizations that pay for them.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#337

Post by quotemstr »

turbinerneiter wrote: post #331
quotemstr wrote: post #312

> We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living No, what we must absolutely do away with is the specious notion that when you take from the productive and give to the unproductive, the productive will keep producing out of the goodness of their hearts. Every attempt at forming a collectivist utopia fails, and that's because collectivism runs contrary to human nature. All atte…

This isn't true. People do unpaid work all the time. Ask your mom. Humans have compassion. They want to cooperate and collaborate. Also, right now, we have a system that takes from the productive (workers) and gives it to the unproductive (shareholders) - so please chose wisely which argument you want to make.

> People do unpaid work all the time. Ask your mom. Humans have compassion. They want to cooperate and collaborate.

Free work is for people close to me or for special cases like FOSS projects I want to win. It's not for strangers. When the Soviets collectivized farms, output crashed. Let's not so quickly forget the lessons of the 20th century.

> have a system that takes from the productive (workers) and gives it to the unproductive (shareholders)

Profit is not a sin. Tech treats its workers better than practically any other industry, and there's never been an industry with fewer barriers to industry. If you want to renew 20th century worker class consciousness rhetoric, also renew its disastrous consequences.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#338

Post by exogeny »

oliverx0 wrote: post #326
quotemstr wrote: post #312

> We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living No, what we must absolutely do away with is the specious notion that when you take from the productive and give to the unproductive, the productive will keep producing out of the goodness of their hearts. Every attempt at forming a collectivist utopia fails, and that's because collectivism runs contrary to human nature. All atte…

Not sure why you are being downvoted. I strongly resonate with this sentiment.

He’s being downvoted because it’s a highly sociopathic argument.

Humans also value empathy and compassion as well as mercenary self-fulfillment. Have you never been to, say, a soup kitchen or an animal shelter? I sort of suspect that the poster above hasn’t.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#339

Post by scarejunba »

shijie wrote: post #317
petermcneeley wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would part of that bastardization since 1776 be the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863?

It seems a bit disingenuous to assume that the parent commenter laments the emancipation proclamation just because he/she has a differing view on fiscal policy. This is ad hominem by definition. Not very contributory to the conversation. What parts of his/her points do you disagree with?

Oh this one is easy. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22027504 for the statement:

> The worst thing to happen to minorites in the US was the civil Rights Act of 1964.

If you think I’m quoting out of context, entertain yourself with the rest of the comment. It’s on this very story. No digging necessary.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#340

Post by simple_phrases »

dang wrote: post #258
_0uto wrote: post #31

I see a lot of protestant mentality here in comments valuing any kind of even inhumane labour which does not allow to meet basic needs over not having a job, but also not suffering from hunger thanks to the social support system. In my opinion, we as a society should aim to work less and less, collectively making use of automation and technological progress. But it will be hard when we label this as being lazy and no…

> I see a lot of protestant mentality here Please keep religious flamebait off this site. It leads to religious flamewars, which we seriously don't want here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dang, please try to read charitably into the comments you choose to moderate. The concept of Protestant work ethic in the US is centuries old and is effectively divorced from any religious associations it might have had in the 1600's.
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