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Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

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Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#91

Post by soulofmischief »

SllX wrote: post #72
epicgiga wrote: post #53

Problem is that states usually have constitutional safeguards that keep a safe balance of power between citizen and state. Not so with these companies. Step out of line and they can unperson you like that, and you can't vote on their leadership. And increasingly entire livelihoods and social existences are tied into them. This is why you're seeing states start to get so aggressive with them. The EU fining billions ou…

The difference between a sovereign nation-state and a corporation is that a nation-state has a legal monopoly on sanctioned violence within their jurisdiction. Those constitutional safeguards are necessary because otherwise they could search, seize, detain, arrest, imprison, torture and kill with impunity. A tech company can deplatform you with impunity, but they’re not inflicting any real violence in the process. Co…

> they’re not inflicting any real violence in the process

Are you suggesting violence can be only physical in nature? Even if you aren't, your choice of the word violence is intentional because you want to avoid words like "harm" which more fully capture the socioeconomic implications of being fired without due cause from a position which your livelihood depends on.

In an ideal world, nation states would provide UBI for their citizens. A company is not going to provide UBI for someone who does not add to their bottom line. And that's why the American government, for example, could be considered a business instead of a real government. A government by nature serves its people, a company by nature is served by its people.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#93

Post by throwlaplace »

isoskeles wrote: post #92

This is only a problem if you think the state is the most important idea and institution that should exist.

state as republic is absolutely the most important idea and institution that should exist in a world where there are no longer isolated communities.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#94

Post by SllX »

epicgiga wrote: post #90
SllX wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between a sovereign nation-state and a corporation is that a nation-state has a legal monopoly on sanctioned violence within their jurisdiction. Those constitutional safeguards are necessary because otherwise they could search, seize, detain, arrest, imprison, torture and kill with impunity. A tech company can deplatform you with impunity, but they’re not inflicting any real violence in the process. Co…

This is an overly simplistic view of power. The man in the blue uniform with the gun is at the end of a very long chain of people. What happens, historically, when one group wields superior technology to another group? Who has the power? Do you think we have the power, with our 1 in 300 millionth votes every 4 years for 1 of 2 people? Sure, let's pretend there'll never be any "senator, I'm afraid if you take that sta…

There’s elections in every State every 1-2 years for a variety of positions from city assemblies to county board of supervisors to the lower and upper house of each State that has both, executive offices, different special district bodies, Judges in some cases for better or worse, and again, depending on the State, various city, county and/or State ballot propositions before we even get to the 1 Representative, 2 Senators and 1 President you can cast votes for as well.

That’s just the ballots you cast. There are countless ways to politically involve yourself in any issue you care to make the time for. We’re not powerless citizens, but our power is diluted, intentionally so, because that’s what democracy does. You wield as much power as you are willing and able to accumulate up until the point where the power you wield competes with people with interests counter to yours.

Yes, it was a simplistic outline of the power of the state vs. the power of a corporation, but it is an accurate one. Corporations are agents of the people they serve, a means of aggregating means and power to more effectively wield it in the interests of the people they are serving. The power they can wield is immense, but it is still ultimately subordinate to the power of a state.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#95

Post by tomrod »

bagacrap wrote: post #89
tomrod wrote: post #80

So do several religions. As well as mafioso or cartels. I think of these groups as "states-in-waiting." Should their regional government grow too corrupt or too weak, they fill the void. [1] https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-net-worth-of-the-Catholic-... [2] https://fox13now.com/2018/05/30/mormonleaks-lds-church-contr... [3] https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2660520/joaquin-el-chapo-guzma...

To transition into something resembling a government would not be very on brand for Apple. If anything they seem likely to blast off into space and colonize Mars with all the cash they've mined and stockpiled here.

And serve as the local authority there for at least awhile.

It might follow something like this pattern, sans prior residents: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#96

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

bilbo0s wrote: post #64
christiansakai wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me for my naive thinking. But as long as country have a military power, isn’t that the ultimate deciding factor? Like, sure you can bully nations all you want, but as soon as they implement policies like “obey our rules or get out of our land or receive the end of the gunpowder” companies will just obey

> Forgive me for my naive thinking. But as long as country have a military power, isn’t that the ultimate deciding factor? It's not naive, it's the way life works even though we don't like to admit it. They got the bigger guns. They're in charge. Full stop. A Constitution and laws just tells us the conditions under which they will use their guns. Even then, they can and will use them on other occasions if they feel t…

> The idea that companies or citizens are more powerful than governments is fanciful in the extreme.

I’m certain King George would have agreed with you in 1775.

The people in the USA specifically are better armed and outnumber the US military many times over. This was by design.

You could make an argument about nukes or tanks or drones - but you know what has to stand on street corners to enforce curfews, stop assembly, or protect supply chains? Soldiers.

The US government as an entity is weaker than the people it sees over - for now. Many people are intent to change that.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#97

Post by [deleted] »

soulofmischief wrote: post #91
SllX wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between a sovereign nation-state and a corporation is that a nation-state has a legal monopoly on sanctioned violence within their jurisdiction. Those constitutional safeguards are necessary because otherwise they could search, seize, detain, arrest, imprison, torture and kill with impunity. A tech company can deplatform you with impunity, but they’re not inflicting any real violence in the process. Co…

> they’re not inflicting any real violence in the process Are you suggesting violence can be only physical in nature? Even if you aren't, your choice of the word violence is intentional because you want to avoid words like "harm" which more fully capture the socioeconomic implications of being fired without due cause from a position which your livelihood depends on. In an ideal world, nation states would provide UBI…

[deleted]

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#98

Post by xenospn »

bagacrap wrote: post #89
tomrod wrote: post #80

So do several religions. As well as mafioso or cartels. I think of these groups as "states-in-waiting." Should their regional government grow too corrupt or too weak, they fill the void. [1] https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-net-worth-of-the-Catholic-... [2] https://fox13now.com/2018/05/30/mormonleaks-lds-church-contr... [3] https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2660520/joaquin-el-chapo-guzma...

To transition into something resembling a government would not be very on brand for Apple. If anything they seem likely to blast off into space and colonize Mars with all the cash they've mined and stockpiled here.

How would that benefit their bottom line?

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#99

Post by SllX »

soulofmischief wrote: post #91
SllX wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between a sovereign nation-state and a corporation is that a nation-state has a legal monopoly on sanctioned violence within their jurisdiction. Those constitutional safeguards are necessary because otherwise they could search, seize, detain, arrest, imprison, torture and kill with impunity. A tech company can deplatform you with impunity, but they’re not inflicting any real violence in the process. Co…

> they’re not inflicting any real violence in the process Are you suggesting violence can be only physical in nature? Even if you aren't, your choice of the word violence is intentional because you want to avoid words like "harm" which more fully capture the socioeconomic implications of being fired without due cause from a position which your livelihood depends on. In an ideal world, nation states would provide UBI…

Violence is inherently physical. It is the forceful physical violation of one’s person or property. Trying to expand the definition of “violence” beyond this scope dilutes its meaning beyond recognition and usefulness.

However, I will agree it is harmful when a supplier terminates its services, particularly so if you were dependent on that supplier. People make their own choices about who to do business with and how to go about their business, but let’s not pretend that YouTube is anything it isn’t. The lesson to take away here isn’t that YouTube should be regulated like some kind of utility and to take away their ability to terminate relations with producers, but that you shouldn’t be so thoroughly dependent on one supplier for your business that it is financially ruinous to lose their services.

I’m not saying there’s no case to be made for YouTube to improve their policies and processes to provide more due process than they do now, but that’s a debate that should be happening between YouTube and the people that use YouTube to distribute their work. They’re not employees, they’re clients, effectively small businesses and a number of the smarter ones already know the danger of depending on YouTube as their sole source of income and have worked to diversify.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#100

Post by stanfordkid »

christiansakai wrote: post #58
epicgiga wrote: post #53

Problem is that states usually have constitutional safeguards that keep a safe balance of power between citizen and state. Not so with these companies. Step out of line and they can unperson you like that, and you can't vote on their leadership. And increasingly entire livelihoods and social existences are tied into them. This is why you're seeing states start to get so aggressive with them. The EU fining billions ou…

Forgive me for my naive thinking. But as long as country have a military power, isn’t that the ultimate deciding factor? Like, sure you can bully nations all you want, but as soon as they implement policies like “obey our rules or get out of our land or receive the end of the gunpowder” companies will just obey

I think people are underestimating how much of an asymmetric advantage a tech giant like google has over opponents — so far it is in good hands, but I would argue that, if the company were taken over by a bad actor, they would have almost infinite data to blackmail any opponent that isn’t a saint with the most personal details of their life or monitor their activities.
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