Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay • Hacker News Board

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#71

Post by CivBase » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

HenryKissinger wrote: post #51

dcolkitt wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your hypothesis does not hold up to the data. The unemployed in Canada experience the same penalty in life satisfaction as the unemployed in the United States: > On average, the unemployed experience lower life satisfaction than the employed by about 0.3 standard deviations in Canada and the United States, by 0.32 standard deviations in the United Kingdom and by 0.47 standard deviations in Germany.[1] Your claims rel…

Health care is not tied to employment in Canada, for one.

Heath insurance is a benefit offered by some US employers as an alternative form of compensation. Employers get discounted rates because of how many customers they bring to the insurer and they pocket some of those savings while passing the rest on to the employees.

You can get health insurance without having a job. It's expensive, but it's not like it's cheap through employers. Just cheaper.

Health care - at least, treatment for life-threatening emergencies - is a right protected by the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act in the US.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#72

Post by dfilppi » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #27

People need to get that first job. That first job leads to skills, experience, knowledge of how to interact with coworkers, and so on. Few people start at minimum wage and then get stuck there. The ranks of the poor are fluid. This is one reason why I’m against the minimum wage - by making it harder to get that first job, you make it increasingly difficult to get into the employment market. I would be less opposed to…

The minimum wage is zero, and always will be.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#73

Post by dack » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

rexreed wrote: post #47

I would like to advance a different opinion. There are many that are proponents of Universal Basic Income (UBI). However, many state that one problem with UBI is that it comes at the expense of personal gratification and economic productivity. I am of the opinion that low wage jobs are a form of UBI. In this manner, individuals are paid a basic income in exchange for their productivity. However, these jobs are not me…

I think employers will move toward automation regardless, so in a way UBI has an advantage there. I also think preventing automation just so humans have something to do isn't reasonable. Let's progress technology, and think of ways to give more dignity to humans at the same time!

Lastly, the benefits point you made does make sense, except a "retirement" benefit shouldn't be needed (it only exists because eventually you can't do work but need money - basically what UBI already is)

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#74

Post by throw0x1away » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

jfk13 wrote: post #54

throw0x1away wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

minimum wage isn’t worth much. period. These regulations upon regulations, shitty policies and "governing" from socialists are killing the market and gotta stop. It's dumb to interfere with the market and dictate how much your skills are worth. USSR as a reference? We know what financial top-down planning and dictatorship does to countries. Minimum wage should be abolished.

"The market" is not some all-powerful, benevolent force that will always achieve the best outcome for humanity or society as a whole. Markets are disproportionately controlled by the current holders of wealth (and therefore power), who will naturally tend to seek their own advantage at the expense of others. And so some kinds of regulation are often appropriate to protect the less powerful participants.

free market IS all-powerful. times change, technological progress moves forward, financial powers rise and fall, it's natural, it's evolution, a chaos controlled by the market (and not by the billionaires, it's not Russia). If you interfere, you are making things worse, delaying the inevitable, promoting dependence, killing individuality (or even progress).

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#75

Post by HarryHirsch » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

howmayiannoyyou wrote: post #40

Low unemployment drives productivity gains that keep wages low and that contributes to increased unemployment. See the cycle play out here: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=pTTx Workers with skills that align add productivity see wage gains. Workers and entire businesses on the wrong side of the productivity wave end up dislocated. I'm sure UBI and other public policy efforts can correct this, right about the tim…

Look at the occupations predicted to grow: https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/occupations-most-job-growth.h...

Nursing and home aides, fast food, janitors, warehousing and trucking - these are all unproductive and low-skill occupations. It wouldn't look that sorry if the country implemented better industrial policies.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#76

Post by rayiner » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

> Market failures abound: Education and health care are out of reach for many, child care is often prohibitively expensive (even as child care workers are woefully underpaid), and decent, affordable housing is scarce in many regions.

It’s utterly ridiculous to call these things “market failures.” Every single one of those areas is not a market but is heavily regulated in a way that limits supply. Education mostly a government service, even at the tertiary level. Fully 50% of college students attend a public school.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#77

Post by SeanBoocock » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #59

supernova87a wrote: post #36

I don't think low unemployment is the unequivocal positive sign that politicians/ think it is ("We're putting millions of Americans back to work!"). Maybe it's not something to be so proud of. If people are having to come out of the woodwork to take jobs that aren't moving the average wage up, maybe they're doing it because they have to, in order to get by. Is it a good thing that a 60+ year old goes back to work at…

Even the lowest wage bracket of jobs has kept up with price inflation overall.

That doesn’t ring true but I’d be to learn otherwise. What data are you referring to?

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#78

Post by rexreed » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #66

rexreed wrote: post #47

I would like to advance a different opinion. There are many that are proponents of Universal Basic Income (UBI). However, many state that one problem with UBI is that it comes at the expense of personal gratification and economic productivity. I am of the opinion that low wage jobs are a form of UBI. In this manner, individuals are paid a basic income in exchange for their productivity. However, these jobs are not me…

The typical low wage job is meant to (using your term) build wealth for the employer.

That is often the case. The function of the low wage job is for the benefit of the employer, not the employee. The function of UBI is neither to build wealth for the individual nor the economy as a whole. Wealth still becomes concentrated with the smaller pool of individuals in control of resources and means of production.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#79

Post by Frost1x » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #36

I don't think low unemployment is the unequivocal positive sign that politicians/ think it is ("We're putting millions of Americans back to work!"). Maybe it's not something to be so proud of. If people are having to come out of the woodwork to take jobs that aren't moving the average wage up, maybe they're doing it because they have to, in order to get by. Is it a good thing that a 60+ year old goes back to work at…

I don't think most politicians are ignorant enough to believe this.

It's part of the marketing used that also seeds self-doubt into many citizens and saves politician's faces:

"How can something so complex (at scale) and studied as unemployment be wrong? I must be the problem finding gainful employment, everyone else is doing great based on these numbers, I guess I need to work even harder to pickup my slack. My representatives even tell me everyone is doing great, look at the GDP and DOW soaring! What am I doing wrong?? Why cant I find a job, I guess I'll have to take whatever I can get." etc.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#80

Post by rexreed » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

dack wrote: post #73

rexreed wrote: post #47

I would like to advance a different opinion. There are many that are proponents of Universal Basic Income (UBI). However, many state that one problem with UBI is that it comes at the expense of personal gratification and economic productivity. I am of the opinion that low wage jobs are a form of UBI. In this manner, individuals are paid a basic income in exchange for their productivity. However, these jobs are not me…

I think employers will move toward automation regardless, so in a way UBI has an advantage there. I also think preventing automation just so humans have something to do isn't reasonable. Let's progress technology, and think of ways to give more dignity to humans at the same time! Lastly, the benefits point you made does make sense, except a "retirement" benefit shouldn't be needed (it only exists because eventually y…

Yes, Social Security and Pension benefits are indeed a form of UBI, earned through employment contributions.

Also to add to your points above, in the scenario where all possible low wage jobs are eliminated through automation, this would require a dramatic restructuring of the labor pool and economic environment. This is further evidence of the role low wage plays in current economy.

In the situation where low wage jobs are fully eliminated, all that remains are concentrations of high wage / self-employed pools and a very large amount of automation systems that would require management.

Perhaps one alternative to UBI is the creation of patronage systems that can support human endeavors where no productivity output is required, but human creativity output is desired. Something to think about.