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Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

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Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#51

Post by braythwayt »

jotm wrote: post #44
ginko wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also not true. Apples valuation is around $365 billion, Denmarks _GDP_ is around $370 billion per year. I'd argue a sovereign country's assets are essentially invaluable, but in Denmark's case there's the interesting historical fact that the US government offered to buy Greenland several times (and always being rebuffed by the Danes), so at least there's an estimate for the value of that island alone: https://en…

Let's go by the price of land in Denmark. 25,000 Euros per hectare in 2009. That's for agricultural land. Greenland does not support agriculture, but it does have natural resources, and can have a good strategic value. So let's say it's 10,000 Euros per hectare, a good discount. It would cost 2.6 trillion Euros, or 2.9 trillion US Dollars. Everything has a price, I wonder if that would be acceptable for Denmark and u…

Danish Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen called the idea of selling Greenland “absurd,” in public, which in the world of diplomacy is a sharp rebuke for President Trump mentioning the idea.

The Danes went on to say, in a further humiliation on the world stage, that we are past the point in history of buying and selling lands and people, sending Trump off with a red card.

Everything does not have a price, and even exploring the idea that the people of another nation’s protectorate can be traded like hockey cards will only lead to more embarrassment.

p.s. If America wants Greenland, the easiest way would be to simply ask the people of Greenland, who have their own flag and government.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/08/23/donald-tr...

It’s a matter of speculation how they would feel about the prospect of being treated as America has treated Puerto Rico, but that would be their decision to make for themselves.

In his century, Greenland is not a colony.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#52

Post by hocuspocus »

bostik wrote: post #30
coder1001 wrote: post #9

Doesn't Apple need the secrecy to survive? Imagine Nokia getting hold of the specs of the original iPhone early before its release, how would the world be today?

It wouldn't have made any difference. Nokia R&D had a touchscreen-only phone prototype in early noughties. It got killed, and while I have not seen the actual memo, I've heard people quoting from it: "Nokia will never make a touchscreen-only phone." Apple launched iPhone a few months later.

Also, after talking to people who were employees at the time, it seems Nokia could have put an order of magnitude more resources behind MeeGo, but decided not to. When they realized their mistake, it was too late and jumping to Windows Phone looked like the only reasonable move.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#53

Post by epicgiga »

Problem is that states usually have constitutional safeguards that keep a safe balance of power between citizen and state.

Not so with these companies. Step out of line and they can unperson you like that, and you can't vote on their leadership. And increasingly entire livelihoods and social existences are tied into them.

This is why you're seeing states start to get so aggressive with them. The EU fining billions out of them on an ongoing basis. Dragging them before Congress. Etc.

They're not only starting to rival them in power, they're starting to flex power over them -- playing a kingmaker role as they form the platforms on which elections are being won and lost.

If the tech giants win, we lose. They've already shown willingness to coordinate with each other. The non-poaching agreements and the Alex Jones case.

Our defences from power have always been the existence of multiple states (e.g. refugees) and democracy. They would be beholden to neither. Able to destroy social lives and livelihoods at the click of a button, with no defence and no safeguards.

"Computer says no", to your life.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#54

Post by epicgiga »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #29
speedplane wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For starters, because of freedom of association. You are free to not work for any company you like. If you feel like an employer is oppressing you, you can simply leave Nice in theory, but what about companies that are so large that they effectively control the labor market? What about companies with non-compete agreements? What about collusive non-poaching agreements between companies that lower the market value o…

> but what about companies that are so large that they effectively control the labor market There is no such company in the world, and if there was, it would almost certainly be an illegal monopoly. All but one of the rest of your theories are illegal everywhere, and the last one is illegal in many places (or at lease unenforceable). If you have a problem with companies breaking the law, then you have a problem with…

You're wrong. Look up noncompetes in the US.

The American rule of costs means it doesn't matter if it's not enforceable (which actually it often is). They still have a cause of action to destroy you by the mere act of dragging you through court (and the associated legal costs). And most lowly employees aren't aware of, or willing to test, the enforceability when they get threatened by their ex employer.

The balance of power is rapidly swinging against all but the corporate elite. The Randroids will have us back to serfdom before this decade's end.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#55

Post by tonyedgecombe »

coder1001 wrote: post #9

Doesn't Apple need the secrecy to survive? Imagine Nokia getting hold of the specs of the original iPhone early before its release, how would the world be today?

It's probably about customers as much as competitors. If you are launching a new device next month that is twice as fast as the current one for the same price then customers will hold back their purchases. See the Osborne effect for an extreme example[1].

They tend to be a bit more open when this isn't a concern, for example Apple TV or the new Mac Pro.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#57

Post by mhb »

epicgiga wrote: post #53

Problem is that states usually have constitutional safeguards that keep a safe balance of power between citizen and state. Not so with these companies. Step out of line and they can unperson you like that, and you can't vote on their leadership. And increasingly entire livelihoods and social existences are tied into them. This is why you're seeing states start to get so aggressive with them. The EU fining billions ou…

Problem is that states usually have constitutional safeguards that keep a safe balance of power between citizen and state.

Not so with these companies. Step out of line and they can unperson you like that, and you can't vote on their leadership. And increasingly entire livelihoods and social existences are tied into them.

The notional constitutional safeguards of states become eroded over time (n.b., interstate commerce, mass data collection) and the overreach of states is more potentially damaging to its citizens than getting locked out of a platform on which you built a business.

Political power can be spent over and over. Dollars can only be spent once.

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#58

Post by christiansakai »

epicgiga wrote: post #53

Problem is that states usually have constitutional safeguards that keep a safe balance of power between citizen and state. Not so with these companies. Step out of line and they can unperson you like that, and you can't vote on their leadership. And increasingly entire livelihoods and social existences are tied into them. This is why you're seeing states start to get so aggressive with them. The EU fining billions ou…

Forgive me for my naive thinking. But as long as country have a military power, isn’t that the ultimate deciding factor? Like, sure you can bully nations all you want, but as soon as they implement policies like “obey our rules or get out of our land or receive the end of the gunpowder” companies will just obey

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#59

Post by culturestate »

afthonos wrote: post #49
culturestate wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? I'd argue that while open-plan offices can profoundly affect people's productivity and morale, they have relatively little impact on collaboration or communication - I view these more as functions of the team's culture. As long as your group makes a conscious effort to bounce ideas around and ask each other for advice, what's the difference between sitting at a table wearing headphones or in an office with th…

That’s what “orthogonal” means, in this context … :-)

Whoops, thanks for that. I must've read it as 'antithetical.'

Re: Tech giants have as much money and influence as nations

#60

Post by tasogare »

christiansakai wrote: post #58
epicgiga wrote: post #53

Problem is that states usually have constitutional safeguards that keep a safe balance of power between citizen and state. Not so with these companies. Step out of line and they can unperson you like that, and you can't vote on their leadership. And increasingly entire livelihoods and social existences are tied into them. This is why you're seeing states start to get so aggressive with them. The EU fining billions ou…

Forgive me for my naive thinking. But as long as country have a military power, isn’t that the ultimate deciding factor? Like, sure you can bully nations all you want, but as soon as they implement policies like “obey our rules or get out of our land or receive the end of the gunpowder” companies will just obey

In theory yes, but it takes a government with "balls" to take this kind of stance. Big companies owners and leaders are from the same schools, eat at the same table, are friends with the politician ruling class. One government might take action against a foreign company because it is foreign, yet allows the same behavior from a domestic company. Ultimately the people need to cut some heads to remember them what is the commoner interest. (ps: the last sentence is mostly a joke, based on France history)
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