OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR • Hacker News Board

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#221

Post by chaosite » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 12:35 PM UTC

mantap wrote: post #100

The problem seems to be one of command line interface. In the C/C++ world, you specify the language version using a flag passed to the compiler. e.g. -std=c++98 In most other programming languages, you specify language version by installing multiple copies of the compiler/interpreter and running the corresponding version. The C/C++ way works fine if your language spec is updated once every 3 years. It does not work f…

I agree with the point you're making, but you're actually wrong about C/C++.

It's true that C/C++ compilers usually have a flag that gates language features. However, you're still using the same libc not matter which standard you've picked. For example, there were some changes made to format strings in C99, like parsing hexadecimal numbers with scanf. If you have a C99 libc, you'll always get that behavior, even if you specified "-std=c89".

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#222

Post by cbmuser » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 12:44 PM UTC

thenewnewguy wrote: post #110

fizixer wrote: post #49

This is 100% is on mozilla, given: - it's much bigger and resourceful than openbsd maintainers. - it decided to adopt this fancy update policy, and instead of making it easy/seamless, left it up to the whole open source community to play catch up. Well played.

The "fancy update policy" being 'latest FF stable uses latest rust stable', which seems like a pretty reasonable policy to me.

I disagree. The compiler is normally something that receives major updates in every new distribution release. That's why language specs exist for.

If you are maintaining a large number of machines in an enterprise environment, you're not keen on updating half of the installed system just because you update your browser, simply because the necessary testing and fixing of regressions costs a lot of time and money for no real gain for both users and administrators.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#223

Post by monsieurbanana » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 12:46 PM UTC

serf wrote: post #165

chmln wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has to be one of the most inaccurate memes of all time. To counter with anecdata: I've been running Arch Linux testing repositories for over a year now with no issues whatsoever.

I like Arch. I run it at home. That said, just because you had good luck doesn't mean that it's stable. Here's the most trivial way I can think to explain this: Check out Arch News.[0] Ctrl-F (Find) 'manual intervention'. Six years of results on the first page ; 13 instances of 'manual intervention required'. Reliability != stability. Stability usually implies a platform on which one can use and develop for without e…

I used to run Arch, I don't anymore although not for stability reasons.

13 instances of "manual intervention required" over 6 years seems awesome.

I think I did 2 manual interventions during my time using Archlinux, and each time it took maybe 2 minutes, it was just a matter of copy-pasting the commands in Arch News.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#224

Post by mapgrep » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 12:47 PM UTC

sitkack wrote: post #213

progval wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't blame them. Firefox is a huge piece of software, and is updating every month . It's a bit shitty of Mozilla to expect every single distribution (most of which are run by volunteers) to package all their new dependencies and check everything works every single month.

This is a problem the package maintainers and the distros have brought on themselves! They put countless hours into stitching roadkill into a complex quilt and then scoff at users who complain on the rotting stench. They split packages from the creators into multiple pieces to meet their own idiosyncratic aesthetics. Firefox and other pieces of complex software should reside entirely in its own hierarchy. I have been…

Awesome. I’d add smartOS to that list. ++Qubes.

Although as far as package management in Qubes you’re still stuck with dnf and apt. But they’re pushing progress in other ways. (Are you able to run nix on qubes?)

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#225

Post by okr » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 12:48 PM UTC

sitkack wrote: post #213

progval wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't blame them. Firefox is a huge piece of software, and is updating every month . It's a bit shitty of Mozilla to expect every single distribution (most of which are run by volunteers) to package all their new dependencies and check everything works every single month.

This is a problem the package maintainers and the distros have brought on themselves! They put countless hours into stitching roadkill into a complex quilt and then scoff at users who complain on the rotting stench. They split packages from the creators into multiple pieces to meet their own idiosyncratic aesthetics. Firefox and other pieces of complex software should reside entirely in its own hierarchy. I have been…

But their 'idiosyncratic aesthetic' helps navigating. In the mozilla world, they know their aesthetics ('not invented here'), because its their everyday job and can always work hands on and naturally can be faster. While in the distribution world, where a lot of software comes together, its good that i can find everything in common/familiar places.

Not easy to find a good middle ground and still supporting progress.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#226

Post by hashhar » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 12:50 PM UTC

cbmuser wrote: post #222

thenewnewguy wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "fancy update policy" being 'latest FF stable uses latest rust stable', which seems like a pretty reasonable policy to me.

I disagree. The compiler is normally something that receives major updates in every new distribution release. That's why language specs exist for. If you are maintaining a large number of machines in an enterprise environment, you're not keen on updating half of the installed system just because you update your browser, simply because the necessary testing and fixing of regressions costs a lot of time and money for n…

You can have multiple Rust toolchains side by side. This is a non-issue in that case. If there's some other usecase that this breaks, I'd like to know about it and see if we can do something to improve the scenario.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#227

Post by fluffything » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 12:56 PM UTC

anjbe wrote: post #86

zozbot234 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Okay, suppose someone backporting a Rust update runs a big batch of tests and finds, say, two dozen packages with regressions. > Now what? > Spend two weeks investigating all the test failures? Backporting updates to these packages as well, all while users are patiently waiting for their Firefox to have its zero‐day fixed? Are the tests even correct? Were they failing before and nobody noticed? Yes, people do exact…

> Yes, people do exactly that. It's part of running a "rolling" distro And we do that too—for OpenBSD -current. But we have neither the manpower nor the interest to do such work for old releases .

There are many options to solve that:

* switch to a shorter stable release cycle (4 weeks, 6 weeks, etc.) with dynamic releases (e.g. if a zero day happens, fix current, and do a new stable release)

* switch to only supporting -current

* switch to something like Nix to allow stable users to "switch" some packages from stable to current, without having to bump their whole system (this would have allowed stable users to update their Firefox-stable to Firefox-current)

A good packaging process should not assume that downstream packages can be trusted to have meaningful processes. Relying on Firefox having -esr releases is a temporary workaround.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#228

Post by xorfish » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 1:00 PM UTC

celticmusic wrote: post #180

kick wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstand it, then. Arch is stable enough that (unless you're doing stupid things, like grabbing half of your system from the AUR) there will only be a breaking change every three years or so. Just set a cron job to update it for you and you have nothing to worry about. It was literally created for lazy system administrators, and it's only gotten better for them as time goes on.

if that were true their FAQ wouldn't tell you that broken packages weren't their responsibility.

That faq doesn't make a claim about how frequent such things are.

In my experience it happens very rarely and is often quite easily resolved.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#229

Post by alpaca128 » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 1:07 PM UTC

serf wrote: post #165

chmln wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has to be one of the most inaccurate memes of all time. To counter with anecdata: I've been running Arch Linux testing repositories for over a year now with no issues whatsoever.

I like Arch. I run it at home. That said, just because you had good luck doesn't mean that it's stable. Here's the most trivial way I can think to explain this: Check out Arch News.[0] Ctrl-F (Find) 'manual intervention'. Six years of results on the first page ; 13 instances of 'manual intervention required'. Reliability != stability. Stability usually implies a platform on which one can use and develop for without e…

I don't know about your experience, but if at most 13 little manual interventions in 6 years would be the only problem of most "stable" distros I would have never switched to Arch.

I've had various non-rolling distros fall apart on all sides within 6 months. With Arch I've had one manual intervention(aka one copy-pasted command) in over a year and one minor issue where I needed to restart a service. That's amazing and something I'll gladly take in exchange for painless and straightforward setup of pretty much anything.

Not to mention with regular backups(that should be done either way) and delaying updates in critical time periods you can easily minimize the risk.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#230

Post by alpaca128 » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 1:12 PM UTC

otabdeveloper2 wrote: post #206

celticmusic wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I left arch linux because I got tired of all the breakages, so not a great example.

If we're honest: Arch is annoying, but the reason people (including me) run it is because they don't want their OS to explode in a shitstorm every time a 'major upgrade' cycle happens. (Looking at you, Ubuntu.) So, your comment is 180 degrees off the mark. Arch exists for people who don't want breakages to happen. (On the other hand, if you're conditioned by Windows to reinstall the system every year, then Ubuntu mig…

> Arch exists for people who don't want breakages to happen.

Or, for people who don't want breakages but also want/need current software versions.

Debian-based stuff can be pretty nice and stable as well, but on Arch installing and setting up anything usually "just works" without missing dependencies, renamed packages etc.