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OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

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Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#201

Post by jcelerier »

bibyte wrote: post #183
celticmusic wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I left arch linux because I got tired of all the breakages, so not a great example.

Sometimes it feels like I am living in an alternate reality. After I started using Arch Linux as my main OS I was fully prepared for it to break every few months. But it's been more then 2 years (maybe even 3 or 4 ?) and not one breakage. Also keep in mind that I update it every single day. From time to time I check the Arch Linux news site to see if anything needs manual intervention. So far I haven't needed to do a…

can confirm, went to arch linux due to constant breakage under Debian & Ubuntu, it's be so much more pleasant since then. No more everything exploding left and right as soon as I need a newer GCC or libav version.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#202

Post by stock_toaster »

Mirioron wrote: post #173
ihucos wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally it could be possible to run single (bloated) applications inside a container. Here is the solution I wrote for Linux: http://zpkg.plash.io/

I think containerization is going to be the future for applications in general. It would certainly make using different versions of Python easier.

Is containerization any better than static binaries for compiled apps (not talking about python/ruby/js apps here, but instead compiled ones like firefox)?

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#203

Post by kevingadd »

saagarjha wrote: post #135
andrekandre wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, WebKit-based browsers doesn't seem to suffer from the overuse of dependencies and multiple languages nor does it have packaging hell unlike Chromium and Firefox. why is that?

WebKit is commonly used on many platforms, so I’d guess that plays a big role in it.

In the case of Blink at least, they basically own almost all their dependencies. From my memory WebKit is the same. It makes sense that they would end up that way given their history - KHTML -> Safari -> Chrome all target multiple runtime environments and in the case of Safari especially they were targeting an environment without a bunch of existing unix/linux history behind it.

In comparison historically Firefox has been more aggressive about pulling in 3rd-party dependencies like cairo, ANGLE, etc.

(You could count ANGLE as a 3rd-party dependency for Blink, I suppose, but I don't because AFAIK it's a Google project originally)

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#204

Post by beefhash »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #88
jackhalford wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

none of those solutions apply the BSDs though

Can you run graphical applications inside a BSD jail?

Pedantic note: Jails are not a BSD concept, they're a FreeBSD concept. OpenBSD has no notion of jails.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#205

Post by blackhaz »

strictfp wrote: post #196
jrockway wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I also think that large projects should just vendor their dependencies, including compilers, so you git clone the thing, type "bazel build", and have a working binary. (I am fine if the dependencies are not checked in to the repository, a bazel WORKSPACE file is fine with me. It records a checksum for all dependencies, so even if you reach out to the Internet to get it, you get the same bytes as the develope…

Sure, that gives you working binaries. But also security problems, because you don't control which versions of libraries you are using. Suddenly, all individual software packages must do their own security updates to keep the system secure. So the whole thing is a balance.

Yes. But if we can extract versions of libraries used to build packages then it would be easy to audit the system by cross-checking against CVEs. Those who prioritize security would remove the affected package(s) until a new version is available.

My point here is to be able to install a new package when it's out, without disrupting the whole environment. For FreeBSD, for example, the new Firefox is already available. I have installed it, and it wouldn't run. I had to auto-update 300 MB of other stuff, including LibreOffice, PyCharm and even TeXLive, to get the system up to date for the new Firefox to be able to run.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#206

Post by otabdeveloper2 »

celticmusic wrote: post #111
bscphil wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the benefits of saving disk space by sharing libraries do not justify the inconveniences we, desktop BSD and Linux users, obtain from being forced to disrupt and upgrade hundreds of installed software packages, just because one single desired upgrade requires to pull its dependencies It's funny, from your point of view having a centralized repository with a (usually) single (usually) latest version of a lib…

I left arch linux because I got tired of all the breakages, so not a great example.

If we're honest: Arch is annoying, but the reason people (including me) run it is because they don't want their OS to explode in a shitstorm every time a 'major upgrade' cycle happens. (Looking at you, Ubuntu.)

So, your comment is 180 degrees off the mark. Arch exists for people who don't want breakages to happen.

(On the other hand, if you're conditioned by Windows to reinstall the system every year, then Ubuntu might work fine for you.)

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#207

Post by otabdeveloper2 »

celticmusic wrote: post #126
chmln wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has to be one of the most inaccurate memes of all time. To counter with anecdata: I've been running Arch Linux testing repositories for over a year now with no issues whatsoever.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Frequently_asked_questi... ? > It is the user who is ultimately responsible for the stability of their own rolling release system. The user decides when to upgrade, and merges necessary changes when required. If the user reaches out to the community for help, it is often provided in a timely manner. The difference between Arch and other distributions in this regard is that Arch is…

> Of course a rolling release system is going to have more breakages.

Well, no. The point of a rolling release system is that you upgrade by little increments, so you never have a moment when a 'major upgrade' happens and breaks your system or forces a reinstall.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#208

Post by clarry »

jcranmer wrote: post #113
rvz wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the reality is, some developers of these complex software complain how their software ported to alternative OSes is difficult to maintain even when the BSD devs would offer to maintain it, which is why the BSDs are always on their own here in terms of porting, testing, packaging and updating the software in question. For example, Chromium. Any BSD developer would know that attempting to upstream their port there…

> For example, Chromium. Any BSD developer would know that attempting to upstream their port there is dead in the water. AFAICT, They Chromium devs only care about Win, Mac, Linux and nothing else. Likewise for Firefox, which is why the BSDs don't get official releases. Firefox does maintain ports for the BSDs. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1598511 , an OpenBSD-only issue, was fixed less than a month a…

> The BSDs qualify as "Tier 3" in Mozilla's build terminology, which means that the onus is on external contributors to identify problems and propose fixes, as there is no continuous integration support for these architectures.

In other words, Firefox doesn't maintain the port for OpenBSD, OpenBSD developers do.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#209

Post by stock_toaster »

ChickeNES wrote: post #37
blackhaz wrote: post #14

I am arguing about this on FreeBSD forums - from an end user perspective. I think the benefits of saving disk space by sharing libraries do not justify the inconveniences we, desktop BSD and Linux users, obtain from being forced to disrupt and upgrade hundreds of installed software packages, just because one single desired upgrade requires to pull its dependencies. The whole ecosystem falls down like a card house - o…

I wish NeXTsteps's app bundles had caught on outside of OSX.

AppImage[1] kind of works that way. I'm surprised it hasn't caught on more, tbh. I don't think it supports multiple architectures like app bundles can (fat bundles) though.

[1]: https://appimage.org

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#210

Post by shakna »

celticmusic wrote: post #176
tobias2014 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is funny, I could tell exactly the same story the other way around. I came as a 10+ year Debian user to Archlinux because it did too much automagic under the hood that broke and took a lot of time to fix. No breakage on arch because no automagic behind your back. For a long time before using arch I thought too that rolling release might be more unstable, but I have come to the conclusion that quite the opposite…

thankfully I said Ubuntu and not Debian.

Ubuntu has _more_ magic that breaks a lot more frequently in less expected ways than Debian.
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