Haters • Hacker News Board

Re: Haters

#281

Post by lightedsquib » Sat, Jan 11, 2020, 10:34 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #158

I'm surprised at the harsh negativity in this article. Not that the inquiry into why people become 'haters' isn't intriguing, but to explore it so shallowly and to boil it down to "Well, they are losers", and call in the image of "basement dwellers" frankly, makes pg sound like he is falling into the same trap he is trying to write about - generic hating on others. Despite that, his other points have merit. Haters an…

> I'm surprised at the harsh negativity in this article. Not that the inquiry into why people become 'haters' isn't intriguing, but to explore it so shallowly and to boil it down to "Well, they are losers", and call in the image of "basement dwellers" frankly, makes pg sound like he is falling into the same trap he is trying to write about - generic hating on others.

I think PG has a very specific audience in mind when he writes: founders. I don't think he's trying to create a holistic understanding of "haters." I think he's trying to tell founders not to think about them. It's a waste of their (founders') time.

Haters, and the accusation of being a "fraud," cut to the quick of the confidence founders need to be successful. They often already feel like frauds (or imposters) and acquiring haters only seems to confirm this for them.

I see this glib (and in my experience accurate) treatment of haters as a device founders can use to stay focused.

But I think the other side of your point is worth exploring. As a founder, how do you assess when you have gone (or are contemplating going) too far? Given the fine line between overconfidence and under-confidence, can founders even expect themselves to be able to make that self-assessment?

Re: Haters

#282

Post by lazyant » Sat, Jan 11, 2020, 10:38 PM UTC

skinner_ wrote: post #220

lazyant wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks, -1 for my hypothesis. Well not totally, the fact that the original English word is used (instead of a Dutch one) is also telling.

One more data point: in Hungarian it's also common, also borrowed from English. It's spelled lúzer.

great thanks

Re: Haters

#283

Post by SamReidHughes » Sat, Jan 11, 2020, 10:46 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #254

absolutely horrible piece. From invoking stereotypes about basement-dwelling losers and manhood to a completely uncritical view about what constitutes hate and what doesn't, to the implicit lambda school context around the article, this reads like apologia for the tech CEO polite society who cannot handle criticism from ordinary people. The article even uses the words famous and successful interchangeably, entertaini…

Basement-dwelling losers and men with a lack of manhood are in fact a real thing. Sorry if that bothers you.

Re: Haters

#284

Post by AndrewBissell » Sat, Jan 11, 2020, 10:58 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #193

Defenestresque wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The people you refer to did not hate Holmes/Enron/etc unilaterally because of a vague feeling that their talents were overestimated. They had, to use PG's term in the article, a dispute with them over a particular issue that they had picked up on, often as a result of having domain-specific knowledge that allowed them insight into their operations (i.e. that financials did not seem to be adding up for Enr…

But that's also true for those who call Elon Musk a fraud. Disputes such as "funding secured" (securities fraud), "full self driving coming later this year" (false advertising), booking warranty expenses as goodwill (accounting fraud), Musk's claim he had "recused himself" from the SolarCity acquisition when he hadn't (securities fraud). These accusations of fraud are all truth-claims about the world. They are provab…

PG has explicitly defended Elon Musk from criticism and what he considers "haters" before. It's who I thought he had in mind when I read his piece.

https://mobile.twitter.com/paulg/status/1122987659079618563?...

Of course, when all these substantive points were raised to him on Twitter, he slinked off and didn't respond to a single one. PG also seemed to be implying that Tesla/Musk criticism was "too dedicated" or "too committed" to be organic, lending support to Musk's tactic of deflecting all criticism as oil industry funded propaganda.

Re: Haters

#285

Post by kragen » Sat, Jan 11, 2020, 11:22 PM UTC

kragen wrote: post #270

braythwayt wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you distinguish between x calling y a fraud because x is a hater, and because y is a fraud? The very premise of this question is broken. What matters is whether y is a fraud, not why x is calling them a fraud. The way to discover whether y is a fraud is to look at any evidence x provides, and/or think about any questions x proposes. If x is correct, what does it matter if they’re a hater? If x is incorrect,…

> What matters is whether y is a fraud, not why x is calling them a fraud. The way to discover whether y is a fraud is to look at any evidence x provides, and/or think about any questions x proposes. If x is a hater, they may indeed bring forward useful evidence. Even their silence can be useful evidence: if a Courtney Cobain hater doesn't think she killed Kurt, that's pretty good evidence that there isn't even the f…

Courtney Love. Fuck.

Re: Haters

#286

Post by aguyfromnb » Sat, Jan 11, 2020, 11:43 PM UTC

speedplane wrote: post #65

darawk wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh. What do you mean by that? I think of Elon Musk's haters as more coming from the perspective of thinking he's overly self important and irresponsible (I like Elon though, for the record). I don't really think of his haters as ideological per se. What kind of ideology do you see in his haters?

> (I like Elon though, for the record). I don't really think of his haters as ideological per se. What kind of ideology do you see in his haters? I also like Elon, but the source of the hate probably comes from two sources. The first is the audaciousness of his general proposal: that we give up technology that worked for a century (oil) and try to build something entirely different. It's based on a bias towards the s…

What about the fact that he paid a shady PI to shake down a cave diver trying to help with the Thai cave rescue? Or regularly sends his troll army after journalists with baseless accusations? Or that he commited securities fraud in plain site? Or that it looks like he bailed his family out at the expense of company shareholders? Or that he burned taxpayers in Buffalo?

What about the fact that as the world wakes up to atrocities in China, he went there hat in hand, selling out to the CCP?

There are legit reasons he could be disliked.

Re: Haters

#287

Post by AlexCoventry » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 12:15 AM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #226

tompccs wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are old stories. Given pg's statements on Twitter it's likely Lambda School was at least at the back of his mind when he wrote the piece but I don't think it's the sole reason.

This all blew up on Twitter and Reddit a few nights ago. I actually ended up in chats (directly and indirectly) with a few different LS alumni who didn't know what to do, as they were unable to find work and afraid to speak out against LS for not doing a good job.

Do you have a link to the recent reddit thread?

Re: Haters

#288

Post by coldtea » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 2:12 AM UTC

>But haters are not always complete losers. They are not always the proverbial guy living in his mom's basement. Many are, but some have some amount of talent. In fact I suspect that a sense of frustrated talent is what drives some people to become haters. They're not just saying "It's unfair that so-and-so is famous," but "It's unfair that so-and-so is famous, and not me." Could a hater be cured if they achieved something impressive? My guess is that it's a moot point, because they never will.

I call BS on the premise above.

In the history of mankind, there has never been any shortage of great men, with equal huge fame and big achievements, who hated on each other. From scientists to writers to thinkers to musicians.

Similarly:

> There are of course some people who are genuine frauds. How can you distinguish between x calling y a fraud because x is a hater, and because y is a fraud? Look at neutral opinion. Actual frauds are usually pretty conspicuous. Thoughtful people are rarely taken in by them. So if there are some thoughtful people who like y, you can usually assume y is not a fraud.

There was never a shortage of "thoughtful people" who have sided with frauds. If one considers e.g. Hitler or Stalin a fraud, there was no shortage of influential and famous men, including major artists, thinkers and scientists, who routed for one or the other...

So, at best the premises hold for low-status "internet mob" style haters.

Not for haters-at-large...

Re: Haters

#289

Post by LordFast » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 2:28 AM UTC

True haters are usually those who do not fully understand the subject of their hatred. Because of that, it's always safe to ignore them because the target should know deeply within themselves why they are right.

But there is also a class of fanboys who gradually became disillusioned, for they have come to realize that the emperor has no clothes. For these people it's often the case that the same ones who lifted the star to the top will also cause its downfall. Peter Thiel has written about this in his book, and history is littered with such examples.

Malcolm Gladwell did a good job exploring this type of social behavior in his book.

Re: Haters

#290

Post by tipiirai » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 5:26 AM UTC

This essay makes a strong assumption that haters are haters and fanboys are fanboys. Always and constantly. I think both figures are myths. I have never met a person who always hates everyone or someone who fanboys everyone. I think we are all haters and fanboys to some extend. I have a big list of people that I admire and same goes to people I hate — like Donald Trump. I'm sure Paul Graham also hates someone occasionally. It's human.