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OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

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Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#41

Post by sandov »

blackhaz wrote: post #14

I am arguing about this on FreeBSD forums - from an end user perspective. I think the benefits of saving disk space by sharing libraries do not justify the inconveniences we, desktop BSD and Linux users, obtain from being forced to disrupt and upgrade hundreds of installed software packages, just because one single desired upgrade requires to pull its dependencies. The whole ecosystem falls down like a card house - o…

I'll go one step further:

The whole "centralized, trusted repository that has all your apps" system is wrong at a fundamental level.

The way shared libraries are used in Linux is built upon the assumption that package managers and centralized repositories are the right way to do things.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#42

Post by toyg »

elagost wrote: post #22

Is there a better alternative to Firefox? Of all the browsers it seems like the "least bad" choice (above Chromium, and other proprietary browsers) and I use it, but is there something safer, simpler, and more secure?

> is there something safer, simpler, and more secure?

No.

Building a good browser is hard. Typically you can get something "safer" (from a privacy/business model perspective) and/or "simpler" (from a development perspective) relatively easily - see KHTML and other niche efforts. But when it comes to "more secure" while supporting modern web features, you need a lot of skilled eyeballs on code and a lot of people trying to break things. You achieve that either with tons of visibility, or with tons of money. Those small projects have neither. Mozilla has both.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#43

Post by barrkel »

markstos wrote: post #35
smartmic wrote: post #4

> being too complicated to package (thanks to cbindgen and rust dependencies) Can anyone explain what is behind? Is it symptomatic for any programs with those dependency? Especially curious about rust because it seems to be hyped very much lately (I have almost zero rust experience and even less bias about it, just being curious)

This is the old packaging design where disk space and bandwidth were expensive, so you tried to have one version of each library or package on disk. This design leads to cascading complexity and breakage when many package depend on the same library and some need different versions of the library. Modern packaging has changed the approach to bundle dependencies-- using more disk space and bandwidth but isolating apps…

Shared libraries aren't just about reducing disk space and bandwidth consumption; it's also about fixing bugs in one place fixing it for all consumers. It requires discipline to only fix bugs and not break consumers, though, and therein lies the devil.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#45

Post by smacktoward »

app4soft wrote: post #31
elagost wrote: post #22

Is there a better alternative to Firefox? Of all the browsers it seems like the "least bad" choice (above Chromium, and other proprietary browsers) and I use it, but is there something safer, simpler, and more secure?

Waterfox (with Web Extensions) or Pale Moon (with XUL/UXP extensions)

If security is something you’re looking for, “Firefox plus some ancient, unmaintained legacy code and patches jammed in by random third parties” is not substantially more appealing than just Firefox by itself.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#46

Post by rvz »

elagost wrote: post #22

Is there a better alternative to Firefox? Of all the browsers it seems like the "least bad" choice (above Chromium, and other proprietary browsers) and I use it, but is there something safer, simpler, and more secure?

The downvotes in this section clearly show the real state of browser technologies and the few choice one will have if they use an alternative OS.

Brave and Vivaldi are still forks of Chromium, Waterfox is a fork of Firefox. Thus you are not going to find any updated alternatives like those on the BSDs anytime soon.

Meanwhile, WebKit-based browsers doesn't seem to suffer from the overuse of dependencies and multiple languages nor does it have packaging hell unlike Chromium and Firefox.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#47

Post by Analemma_ »

sandov wrote: post #41
blackhaz wrote: post #14

I am arguing about this on FreeBSD forums - from an end user perspective. I think the benefits of saving disk space by sharing libraries do not justify the inconveniences we, desktop BSD and Linux users, obtain from being forced to disrupt and upgrade hundreds of installed software packages, just because one single desired upgrade requires to pull its dependencies. The whole ecosystem falls down like a card house - o…

I'll go one step further: The whole "centralized, trusted repository that has all your apps" system is wrong at a fundamental level. The way shared libraries are used in Linux is built upon the assumption that package managers and centralized repositories are the right way to do things.

I agree, and I think that people are too emotionally invested in the package manager concept to back out now. I mean, for years Linux proponents have been touting it as the key advantage over software distribution on Macs/PCs.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#48

Post by protomyth »

marmaduke wrote: post #39
elagost wrote: post #22

Is there a better alternative to Firefox? Of all the browsers it seems like the "least bad" choice (above Chromium, and other proprietary browsers) and I use it, but is there something safer, simpler, and more secure?

Odd that the three replies to your question are grayed out. I don't think there is a viable alternative to Firefox unless you accept a simple web experience and use eg w3m

Chromium runs on OpenBSD.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#49

Post by fizixer »

This is 100% is on mozilla, given:

- it's much bigger and resourceful than openbsd maintainers.

- it decided to adopt this fancy update policy, and instead of making it easy/seamless, left it up to the whole open source community to play catch up.

Well played.

Re: OpenBSD won't update Firefox, advises users to switch to ESR

#50

Post by zozbot234 »

blackhaz wrote: post #14

I am arguing about this on FreeBSD forums - from an end user perspective. I think the benefits of saving disk space by sharing libraries do not justify the inconveniences we, desktop BSD and Linux users, obtain from being forced to disrupt and upgrade hundreds of installed software packages, just because one single desired upgrade requires to pull its dependencies. The whole ecosystem falls down like a card house - o…

Outside packages should NOT be disrupted given semver. The whole point of using shared objects (dynamically-linked libraries) is so that when a problem arises you can update whatever pieces of code in a centralized, system-wide store and every single one of the projects you use can benefit from the new, up-to-date version. Using the latest version is just the right thing to do.
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