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Haters

paulgraham.com

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Re: Haters

#221

Post by tempsy »

codingdave wrote: post #158

I'm surprised at the harsh negativity in this article. Not that the inquiry into why people become 'haters' isn't intriguing, but to explore it so shallowly and to boil it down to "Well, they are losers", and call in the image of "basement dwellers" frankly, makes pg sound like he is falling into the same trap he is trying to write about - generic hating on others. Despite that, his other points have merit. Haters an…

The impetus for the post was a few critical threads on Lambda School on Twitter.

I highly doubt any of this would’ve happened if the CEO had not spent a year relentlessly boasting about his company in a way that you’d expect a used car salesman to do. It was (and continues to be) too fantastical in a way that anyone who has worked in startups knows is rarely the case behind the scenes.

When you invite scrutiny upon yourself by being shameless seller in chief it’s your own doing, not because people suddenly decided they wanted to come out of the woodworks and bash your work.

Re: Haters

#222

Post by tompccs »

KirinDave wrote: post #153
orf wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to link to the story?

https://amp.businessinsider.com/lambda-school-online-coding-... https://twitter.com/KeziyahL/status/1155154616281178114?s=19 https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/8qopsz/if... I could find some more about their instructor roster change but forgive me, I'm traveling internationally today.

These are old stories. Given pg's statements on Twitter it's likely Lambda School was at least at the back of his mind when he wrote the piece but I don't think it's the sole reason.

Re: Haters

#223

Post by nradov »

rossdavidh wrote: post #132
SethTro wrote: post #27

> [1] There are of course some people who are genuine frauds. How can you distinguish between x calling y a fraud because x is a hater, and because y is a fraud? Look at neutral opinion. Actual frauds are usually pretty conspicuous. Thoughtful people are rarely taken in by them. So if there are some thoughtful people who like y, you can usually assume y is not a fraud. I don't think that "some thoughtful people who l…

Basically yes, but it should be said that John Carreyrou didn't act like a hater. Perhaps a better test is, that a thoughtful person thinks y is a fraud, whereas more or less by definition a hater does not come across as a thoughtful person.

That isn't actionable advice. If you think you can reliably identify thoughtful people then you're a fool. Everyone likes to believe that they're good judges of character but we're all very fallible.

Re: Haters

#224

Post by KirinDave »

tempsy wrote: post #221
codingdave wrote: post #158

I'm surprised at the harsh negativity in this article. Not that the inquiry into why people become 'haters' isn't intriguing, but to explore it so shallowly and to boil it down to "Well, they are losers", and call in the image of "basement dwellers" frankly, makes pg sound like he is falling into the same trap he is trying to write about - generic hating on others. Despite that, his other points have merit. Haters an…

The impetus for the post was a few critical threads on Lambda School on Twitter. I highly doubt any of this would’ve happened if the CEO had not spent a year relentlessly boasting about his company in a way that you’d expect a used car salesman to do. It was (and continues to be) too fantastical in a way that anyone who has worked in startups knows is rarely the case behind the scenes. When you invite scrutiny upon y…

> When you invite scrutiny upon yourself by being shameless seller in chief it’s your own doing, not because people suddenly decided they wanted to come out of the woodworks and bash your work.

Lambda School hasn't been under criticism for literally years because Austen sells too hard. It's because they've done some shady, unethical and outright illegal things.

Their refusal to pay license fees while publicly claiming they did has jeopardized every dollar of revenue they're set to collect. If I were an investor, I'd be pretty mad about that.

Their decision to operate as a high pressure environment has created a string of negative stories on Twitter and Reddit about how pressured students felt.

Their wage disputes with their former educators meant they had to switch to relatively unknown and unverifiable teaching staff, which makes it a lot harder to take them seriously.

The idea that it's LS's presentation that has failed seems like it underestimates the problems at hand.

Re: Haters

#225

Post by jasonmp85 »

gizmo wrote: post #193
Defenestresque wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The people you refer to did not hate Holmes/Enron/etc unilaterally because of a vague feeling that their talents were overestimated. They had, to use PG's term in the article, a dispute with them over a particular issue that they had picked up on, often as a result of having domain-specific knowledge that allowed them insight into their operations (i.e. that financials did not seem to be adding up for Enr…

But that's also true for those who call Elon Musk a fraud. Disputes such as "funding secured" (securities fraud), "full self driving coming later this year" (false advertising), booking warranty expenses as goodwill (accounting fraud), Musk's claim he had "recused himself" from the SolarCity acquisition when he hadn't (securities fraud). These accusations of fraud are all truth-claims about the world. They are provab…

Is he arguing that or just asserting it because it’s uncomfortable for him to have to hear consistent criticism from people online in a way he was previously shielded from?

Re: Haters

#226

Post by KirinDave »

tompccs wrote: post #222
KirinDave wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/lambda-school-online-coding-... https://twitter.com/KeziyahL/status/1155154616281178114?s=19 https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/8qopsz/if... I could find some more about their instructor roster change but forgive me, I'm traveling internationally today.

These are old stories. Given pg's statements on Twitter it's likely Lambda School was at least at the back of his mind when he wrote the piece but I don't think it's the sole reason.

This all blew up on Twitter and Reddit a few nights ago.

I actually ended up in chats (directly and indirectly) with a few different LS alumni who didn't know what to do, as they were unable to find work and afraid to speak out against LS for not doing a good job.

Re: Haters

#227

Post by juped »

I think that believing in "haters" is a great way to embed yourself in a reality distortion field. You don't need to dismiss someone to ultimately dismiss their criticism of you.

Graham probably won't read this, but my advice to him (from a moderate admirer, not a "hater") is not to do this to himself.

Re: Haters

#228

Post by irjustin »

danso wrote: post #211
johnwheeler wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s crazy. They weren’t haters. In both cases there were career incentives that drove each to pursuing their targets. At no point did either say to themselves, I hate this fraud because why good on him/her and not me? They thought, I’m going to bust this crooks ass because this is a true injustice that should be exposed, and I’m going to be the one who benefits from doing it. There’s a big difference between cheat…

What is your standard for determining that someone else is actually a "hater"? Because people like Carreyrou were most definitely considered "haters" by Holmes' supporters – Tim Draper in particular called Carreyrou "a hyena" [0]. Your reasoning that Carreyrou is not a hater because he had "career incentives" that drove him is not a sound argument. A hater is not necessarily some kind of evil altruist, i.e. hating pu…

PG's definition qualifies "uncritical". These examples of dogged hatred are extremely critical with merit.

I think we're all saying the same thing just fighting on semantics.

Re: Haters

#229

Post by danso »

johnwheeler wrote: post #215
danso wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your standard for determining that someone else is actually a "hater"? Because people like Carreyrou were most definitely considered "haters" by Holmes' supporters – Tim Draper in particular called Carreyrou "a hyena" [0]. Your reasoning that Carreyrou is not a hater because he had "career incentives" that drove him is not a sound argument. A hater is not necessarily some kind of evil altruist, i.e. hating pu…

> A hater is not necessarily some kind of evil altruist, i.e. hating purely with no respect to personal gain. That is exactly the thrust of PGs essay. Neither of those people violated their own principles. Holmes and Madoff are frauds. Full stop. Tim Draper did consider Carreyou a hater. Draper was proven wrong the instant Carreyou was vindicated. Carreyou didn’t want Holmes to fail because “why her and not me” like…

Holmes and Madoff were frauds after sufficient evidence (including the consequences of their business practices) were made public and heavily scrutinized.

That said, I agree PG's essay isn't intended to be about people like Carreyrou, or the SEC investigators into Madoff, etc – I am confused about which real-life people of consequence he's actually thinking of, because it's strange to write an essay about such an abstract strawman.

But referring back to u/rjdagost's top comment, about totally disagreeing with the footnote that begins with "There are of course some people who are genuine frauds", and that PG's reasoning is unsound because Enron, Theranos, Madoff, etc. "were ALL widely celebrated by neutral third parties before being exposed as frauds"...people like Carreyrou were not seen as "neutral third parties". Again, with respect to Carreyrou, Draper and allies accused him of chasing a Pulitzer, i.e. advancing his career.

It's only through the passage of time and accumulation of evidence that people like Carreyrou are vindicated as being "neutral" or "objective". I guess this is a long way of saying that PG's essay feels like drawn out exercise of begging the question.

Re: Haters

#230

Post by [deleted] »

gizmo wrote: post #193
Defenestresque wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The people you refer to did not hate Holmes/Enron/etc unilaterally because of a vague feeling that their talents were overestimated. They had, to use PG's term in the article, a dispute with them over a particular issue that they had picked up on, often as a result of having domain-specific knowledge that allowed them insight into their operations (i.e. that financials did not seem to be adding up for Enr…

But that's also true for those who call Elon Musk a fraud. Disputes such as "funding secured" (securities fraud), "full self driving coming later this year" (false advertising), booking warranty expenses as goodwill (accounting fraud), Musk's claim he had "recused himself" from the SolarCity acquisition when he hadn't (securities fraud). These accusations of fraud are all truth-claims about the world. They are provab…

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