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Haters

paulgraham.com

201–210 of 308 posts

Re: Haters

#201
post #3

I find this parallel interesting. I definitely have "fanboys" (I cringe at the term, but it's what pg uses, so I'll be consistent) who drive me crazy with their complete lack of critical thinking about my work -- I can see obvious flaws in many things I do, but they apparently can't -- but I can't think of anyone whom I would describe as hating me. Plenty of people ignore me, of course -- but that's quite different f…

I think there are a few possibilities, some of which are on your list, some of which aren't.

Firstly, there's definitely a point in which you attract fanboys but not haters, and if your popularity/fame is in a smaller niche, you may never end attracting the latter at all. Generally, someone tends to get haters when they go 'mainstream', and their work is shown to people that don't like it/can't see why it's popular or successful.

Number 2 on the list probably has some relevance too. For both fanboys and haters, since it's entirely likely every creator has both people who'd love them/their work if they found it and those that'd hate it, and also likely that not everyone in those camps has come across it yet.

In addition to that though, I think there are two more factors that play into how much of a hatedom you have, and I guess also how many fans you have too.

1. How you deal with attacks or criticism. If you ignore the trolls and haters and respond in a civil way to critics, you'll get a lot fewer haters than if you lash out at people. A lot of the folks with more... dedicated critics fall into the latter group. See Chris Chan, Darksyde Phil, Derek Savage, that guy who makes Yandere Simulator, etc.

2. The topic of your success/supposed expertise. If your work is seen as political, it will get a more backlash than if it's about some hobby/interest than most people are neutral about. For instance, I've recently posted two things that got popular; some videos about glitches in a certain video game, and an article calling out web developers/software engineers for using frameworks in situations where they didn't need to.

The former got mostly praise and questions, the latter has brought about a ton of personal attacks and criticism.

Someone who writes a successful article about why Donald Trump got elected/is popular is going to get a lot more hate than someone who writes about quantum mechanics.

I'd say it's a mix of those factors myself.

Re: Haters

#202

...haters are not always complete losers... some have some amount of talent. In fact I suspect that a sense of frustrated talent is what drives some people to become haters. I vibe to this. Anyone who has leveraged talent into success in any area knows how much work it is to be successful at anything . It inspires a level of empathy for people who have trod a similar path. The fanboy is so slavishly predictable in hi…

Here, I'll fix this for you:

The fangirl is so slavishly predictable in her admiration that she's diminished as a result. She's less than a woman.

Re: Haters

#203
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The people you refer to did not hate Holmes/Enron/etc unilaterally because of a vague feeling that their talents were overestimated. They had, to use PG's term in the article, a dispute with them over a particular issue that they had picked up on, often as a result of having domain-specific knowledge that allowed them insight into their operations (i.e. that financials did not seem to be adding up for Enr…

But that's also true for those who call Elon Musk a fraud. Disputes such as "funding secured" (securities fraud), "full self driving coming later this year" (false advertising), booking warranty expenses as goodwill (accounting fraud), Musk's claim he had "recused himself" from the SolarCity acquisition when he hadn't (securities fraud). These accusations of fraud are all truth-claims about the world. They are provab…

Well, it's a great way to shut down whatever criticism without saying "because I say so", at least not straight away.

Re: Haters

#204
post #110

I once read an article in Readers Digest with the title "Why we gossip". I started reading, prepared for something which was probably going to point out all the flaws in those people who gossip, and how they can be rectified etc. But the article took a very interesting turn. It said, (paraphrasing) without gossip, people in power will arrange everything in the general direction of usurping more power (e.g. dictators)…

Yes, Harari's Sapiens also builds upon this premise.

> Imagine if the dictator then tells all his subjects - "whatever you have heard about me is untrue, it is just some haters hating".

I regularly read criticism being waved away with exactly that argument, for example by polticians. It is inherently an ad hominem. Calling someone a fanboy or hater and ignoring their argument in the process _is_ an ad hominem, too. Does not mean the entire argument is (in)valid though.

Re: Haters

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The people you refer to did not hate Holmes/Enron/etc unilaterally because of a vague feeling that their talents were overestimated. They had, to use PG's term in the article, a dispute with them over a particular issue that they had picked up on, often as a result of having domain-specific knowledge that allowed them insight into their operations (i.e. that financials did not seem to be adding up for Enr…

Did you ever read about the obsessive determination with which Harry Markopolos worked to expose Bernie Madoff? He had a visceral obsession with Madoff, working for almost a decade to expose Madoff's scam. John Carreyrou likewise had a longterm fixation on exposing the Theranos scam. These weren't mere "disputes" over technicalities- they were all-consuming endeavors that became core to the identifies of the whistleb…

That’s crazy. They weren’t haters.

In both cases there were career incentives that drove each to pursuing their targets. At no point did either say to themselves, I hate this fraud because why good on him/her and not me? They thought, I’m going to bust this crooks ass because this is a true injustice that should be exposed, and I’m going to be the one who benefits from doing it.

There’s a big difference between cheating and succeeding (that’s what I think haters don’t want to believe), and in some cases like the two you mention, it wasn’t just perceptual. There was hard evidence of fraud.

Re: Haters

#207
The article is about Lambda School, for those who have not been following on Twitter.

if you’re a startup CEO and you spend a year relentlessly bragging about your startup publicly you invite scrutiny on yourself. You are practically begging others to ask questions you might not want asked.

His chief of staff literally insulted the intelligence of anyone who dared suggest Lambda School was worth less than $100B https://web.archive.org/web/20190921045339/https://twitter.c...

Re: Haters

#209

This essay does not read like an intellectual piece at all. Poorly defined terms, labeling people, non-falsifiable psychoanalysis. And to top it off he calls both labeled groups of people "less than men". All of this setup to deliver the profound advice to just ignore them. (Before people call me a "hater", note that I strictly do not meet the definition, because I like a lot of his essays.)

Calling you hater based on this post is just using the argument of the article to make a point. That's like saying: "this statement is true" and anyone who disagrees with that, is a .

Is a hater akin to a criticaster? Like a critic without substance? And a fanboy a fan without substance? Then the burden of proof to prove a lack of substance is with the person who starts to use the word "fanboy" or "hater". As such definitions are essentially ad hominem (and no, you being attacked personally does not warranty an equal ad hominem).

Re: Haters

#210
I think a portion of haters are post-fanboys. That is, at some time there was an experience where the fanboy could no longer deal internally with failures of their obsession, they flipped and gone hater.

Sort of like borderline painting black and white.

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