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Haters

paulgraham.com

141–150 of 308 posts

Re: Haters

#141
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed the point. Graham is explicitly not using hater to disqualify genuine criticism but to identify people whose hate is irrational, who can't be reasoned with. Obviously it's a risk that someone can dismiss genuine criticism as hate (and people do this all the time), but that's not what Graham's advocating here.

Who decides what is "genuine criticism" and what is "hate"? To the person receiving criticism, everything is hate. Look at pg's twitter on Tesla: doesn't understand the hate. Has he read the criticism and refuted it? No, he dismisses it.

It’s often a hard call, and we should certainly not uncritically accept a claim that everyone who disagrees with me is a hater. But I don’t think that’s what he’s doing here. More importantly, it’s a call we have to be willing to make, because some people really are just bullies setting out to drag others down.

Re: Haters

#142
post #110

I once read an article in Readers Digest with the title "Why we gossip". I started reading, prepared for something which was probably going to point out all the flaws in those people who gossip, and how they can be rectified etc. But the article took a very interesting turn. It said, (paraphrasing) without gossip, people in power will arrange everything in the general direction of usurping more power (e.g. dictators)…

Well that was interesting until the attempt to turn "To just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables." and following regret over saying half, into "Hillary thought everyone who doesn't agree with her is a deplorable person."

I mean just, at least try?

Re: Haters

#143
What if the reason haters are using the word "fraud" is not because of sour grape chewing about the random vagaries of chance, but because the company (at the behest of their leadership) has been lying to their customers about such things as:

1. Their employee list (not updating it quickly after major staffing changes)

2. Legal status: misrepresenting to the public and to customers that the company is licensed to operate in that capacity or is proceeding illegally?

3. Pressuring it's subscription customers to publish positive stories about the product and reportedly even threatening their access to it.

I ask because this article comes out days after a Business Insider article about a high profile YC company. Its author uses the words "fraud" on their twitter and "cult" in the article, and makes some of the accusations that I've listed above. It's difficult not to suspect the two events are linked.

Re: Haters

#144
> In fact I suspect that a sense of frustrated talent is what drives some people to become haters. They're not just saying "It's unfair that so-and-so is famous," but "It's unfair that so-and-so is famous, and not me."

> Could a hater be cured if they achieved something impressive? My guess is that it's a moot point, because they never will. I've been able to observe for long enough that I'm fairly confident the pattern works both ways: not only do people who do great work never become haters, haters never do great work.

Listening to that old Steve Jobs interview where he talks about Microsoft (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJWWtV1w5fw) I think there elements there of what Paul would be calling a "hater". A view that there's something a bit wrong with the world when particular non-ideal characteristics are rewarded.

It sounds as if Paul has enough of his own personal issues with haters that he wants to put them all into an irredeemable bucket.

Re: Haters

#145

I never could learn to deal with this. I set up a blog way back when blogs were first a thing, maybe 20 years ago. Started posting articles about internet, culture, tech, anything I found interesting. Almost immediately, I had people dropping by and posting the most vile comments. Whatever I did, I did for bad reasons. I was a bad person and there just wasn't anything I could do or say to fix that. I never learned ho…

Private communities promote bubbles where people become entrenched in their preconceived beliefs. Much like genetics, you need variety, and the strongest beliefs/traits will survive in the long run. I think a healthy mix of public and private communities is the “right” way forward. I will concede there is the ever present problem that toxic people are more likely to speak their mind, which leads to moderates thinking the extremes are the norm. Smaller communities might solve this problem, but I’m not sure moving to all private communities is a good thing. /2cents

Re: Haters

#146

What if the reason haters are using the word "fraud" is not because of sour grape chewing about the random vagaries of chance, but because the company (at the behest of their leadership) has been lying to their customers about such things as: 1. Their employee list (not updating it quickly after major staffing changes) 2. Legal status: misrepresenting to the public and to customers that the company is licensed to ope…

Care to link to the story?

Re: Haters

#147
I. An alternative theory of fandom:

A. Hypothesis:

The person you laud is a target of your psychological projection.

B. Evidence:

Let's take Apple. It had a lot of fanbois, especially 1990-2010. If one thing can be said for it, its ads were true: it thought different. In a world of computers for businesses and penny pinchers, Apple catered to artists and perfectionists.

My first computer was a Macintosh. So that's another thing: nostalgia.

Steve Jobs said and did things that I wish I had the courage to say and do.

C. Conclusions:

When I think of the fanbois of Apple, I think of people who feel (1) underrepresented, and now have found (2) representation.

Therefore to them, Apple is, in a way, them. Apple is me, Steve Jobs is my avatar. I am not famous, so I rely upon Steve Jobs to go out in the world and speak on my behalf. When I see him make a mistake, I explain it away, the way I explain away my own shortcomings. When people attack him, I feel attacked, and so I speak up in his defense.

---

II. Paul Graham suggests that fanbois and haters are two sides of the same coin. So let me put haters under the same light.

A. Hypothesis:

The person you cast aspersions upon is a target of your psychological projection.

B. Evidence:

Scant evidence, because I don't talk to haters much about their hating. I did have a friend though who was normally cheerful but surprised me one day with his hatred for Ben Affleck. Now that I revisit the memory, I wonder if Ben Affleck reminded him of an old classmate.

People have an unusual hatred for celebrities who seem nice like Taylor Swift. Maybe she reminds them of an old girlfriend who hurt their feelings.

C. Conclusions:

As I walk these streets, I seem to be surrounded by nice, well-adjusted people. Most of them are polite and quiet. But as I get to know people, and as I read the news, I keep finding out that emotional abuse is rampant. I think everyone is hurting, but they're usually stuffing it, and then it escapes in unexpected directions, like at Ben Affleck.

Therefore Ben Affleck or Taylor Swift is, in a way, the person who hurt them. Ben becomes the avatar of a certain enemy (or perhaps one's own repressed shame, maybe he reminds you of you).

Such is psychological projection. I didn't make it up. I read about it. It's usually about projecting onto not-famous people, just people around you. For example, a father might project his own faults onto his son. But now I am thinking of it specifically for people in the spotlight. It makes sense that people who have your attention could become the target of your thoughts.

---

Coda:

A nice side of this theory is that it explains sports fans too. Why do you care about this group of people throwing a ball around in this field down below? Why are you yelling and screaming? Well, because for whatever reason you have decided that they represent you. Maybe it's as simple as the team is from Cincinnati, and you live in Cincinnati. Or in the case of college sports, that you went to that college, or your mother did. (I admit I'm not into sports, and many people root for teams that seem to have nothing to do with them, so this explanation may be incomplete.)

---

Epilogue:

Paul Graham did not treat this possibility, but his conclusion rings true: When people love or hate you unreasonably, it's not about you, it's about them.

Re: Haters

#148

Well, consider sports fans for a moment. There’s nothing rational in particular about worshipping a uniform, and yet you will find sports fans all over the place. And sports fans are almost all haters of the other team. And yet... there are plenty of wildly successful people that are fans of sports, and haters of the rivals. Obama is famously a basketball fan, for instance. I get that it’s a lot milder than hating on…

I thought of sports too. I personally have irrational hatred for rival players that, for example, accidental injured a player on my team in a big game. But it's almost like a joke or game; if I met the player in person I wouldn't act crazy.

I think the compartmentalizing you mentioned is interesting. In American politics right now, the home team and rivalry mentality seems to have spilled out into actually important areas of discourse. At the same time, neighbors still live in relative harmony in their day to day lives.

I just wonder if PG's theory really is more about trolls, despite him specifically addressing the distinction.

Re: Haters

#149

> In fact I suspect that a sense of frustrated talent is what drives some people to become haters. They're not just saying "It's unfair that so-and-so is famous," but "It's unfair that so-and-so is famous, and not me." > Could a hater be cured if they achieved something impressive? My guess is that it's a moot point, because they never will. I've been able to observe for long enough that I'm fairly confident the patt…

Regarding the link, you can kind of get around that semantically: I'd view Jobs' attention as a "grudge". He's not bashing microsoft out of a generic sense that "microsoft is bad", he's mad at Gates for what he views as specific bad actions taken against him specifically. So he wants to hurt him back.

It seems reasonable to me that that's a different kind of psychology than the fundamentally impersonal "fanboy/hater" ideas in the essay.

Re: Haters

#150

> Could a hater be cured if they achieved something impressive? My guess is that it's a moot point, because they never will. Couldn't disagree with this more. There are innumerable examples of toxic people turning things around in a different situation. PG is making the fundamental attribution error here. Only the most cursory glance could imply that haters are never successful. If you followed individual haters, you…

The world is full of haters accomplishing impressive things, particularly in politics.

Edit: if you define "impressive" as "something a hater could not do" and "not impressive" as notorious things haters do, then I understand downvoting this comment. But that's begging the question.

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