Earlier quoted context omitted.
Doing good for the world and getting rich are by no means mutually exclusive. People pay money for products and services that make their lives better and history has shown that economic growth is not a zero-sum game. Where companies get into ethical trouble is when they try to maintain exponential growth long after it is possible to do so in a way that is moral. You can make a lot of money doing good for the world, b…
>economic growth is not a zero-sum game. economic growth is an abstraction. i'm not talking about abstract notions of good and evil. some people believe that there are systems where entropy decreases too. their mistake is the same as yours: the system you're looking at isn't big enough. someone, somewhere, pays for your growth. either it's the employees that you underpay or it's the commons that you trash or it's the…
I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left
181–188 of 188 posts
Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
> ethical sense Define that. For regular people in China, does the addition of Google with some censorship make their life better? Does it improve information flow over existing domestic search engines? I think the answer is obvious. People subscribe to overly simplistic thinking - if something is not perfect, it must be the worst. I see a lot of people promoting sanctions on a country because of government. Who gets…
While it's obvious that some information is numerically greater than no information, it's not obvious that a censored flow of information makes anyone's life better than the alternatives. When the information flow is all-or-nothing (either you get the full uncensored fire-hose, or you get nothing and whole sites/services are blocked due to censorship), the citizen at least knows they're being censored, and then the b…
Since your argument revolve around this, do you know if this is correct? As in, people in China does not know they're being censored?
Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
I live and work in mainland China, and the government here pisses me off. Yeah, i am a foreigner, but this is my home. I pay taxes here. I deserve to have my voice heard. The Chinese government is trash. Because i am a foreigner the worst that could happen from me voicing such an opinion is the government doesn't renew my work visa. For Han, it could affect their social credit rating. For ethnic minorities it could l…
I travel to mainland China very frequently for my company, however I don't pay taxes there so maybe my opinion should be weighed a little differently. The people I talk generally genuinely are really happy with the regime though. People respect the hell out of Xi, and faith in the central government combined with the Maoist nationalism that still prevails as the dominant form of identity for most mainland Chinese you…
Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do the majority of people living in China know about / care about censorship? Curious if information was being censored how you'd even know.
Of course. It's condescending to think otherwise, you can't pretend youtube or twitter doesn't exist (especially with a substantial portion who use VPN to evade censorship anyways), it's just accepted as a fact of life.
Really? China's a huge country with huge differences in income and education. I wouldn't be surprised at all if there are some people who aren't aware of the censorship or others even outside of the government that feel like it's a good policy. Mainly curious how small that population is.
Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
I live and work in mainland China, and the government here pisses me off. Yeah, i am a foreigner, but this is my home. I pay taxes here. I deserve to have my voice heard. The Chinese government is trash. Because i am a foreigner the worst that could happen from me voicing such an opinion is the government doesn't renew my work visa. For Han, it could affect their social credit rating. For ethnic minorities it could l…
I travel to mainland China very frequently for my company, however I don't pay taxes there so maybe my opinion should be weighed a little differently. The people I talk generally genuinely are really happy with the regime though. People respect the hell out of Xi, and faith in the central government combined with the Maoist nationalism that still prevails as the dominant form of identity for most mainland Chinese you…
While living here i have spoken to plenty of people who do not parrot the party line. Even in the middle class there are a lot who don't like it when the government censors their shows or deletes well-loved memes. In fact, that is one of the more common grievances i've heard from the middle class here. This is a group of people who can comfortably afford VPN, but they'd still prefer not to have to.
In the working class people seem less concerned about censorship as a moral issue, but it still negatively impacts their lives. There is a real resentment of the corruption that is rife in the party and amongst the elites. Censorship means the working class can't talk about it outside the dinner table and they can't mobilize. Rural people get a raw deal on education and they know it. The poor are upset about rising income inequality and gentrification.
Migrant workers in many larger cities still don't get hukou (residence), so they cannot get healthcare, their kids can't attend public schools, they do not qualify for public housing and so on. Their lives are precarious. Entire neighborhoods can be marked for demolition and there is no avenue for protest because the tenants don't count as residents anyway.
Meanwhile the government constantly crack down on the lower class - shutting down food stalls, kicking out street vendors, fining delivery drivers and so on. I can assure you that people on the receiving end of this aren't as thrilled with the regime as the ones who can afford an iPhone and an apartment in a gated community.
Still, let's address the "Chinese exceptionalism" argument. The idea that China needs socialism "with Chinese characteristics" is CPC propaganda, not some innate truth. It can be debunked simply by looking across the strait at Taiwan, where there is a majority (Han) Chinese country that operates perfectly fine with a democracy and no censorship. For sure, the whole island has less people in it than Shanghai, but the proof is there: Chinese people can thrive in a free state. Tens of millions of ethnic Chinese live in democratic countries all over the world and don't pine for the days of living under authoritarianism.
There is no doubt that East Asian culture is different to western culture, but it's not that much different. People still like to be able to talk about things they care about, read about what's actually happening in their neighborhood, and express grievances when they see injustice. Although most Chinese tolerate the current situation, i think it's misleading to imply that there is full-throated support of the status quo. My personal feeling is people would be very pleased if the government were to become more transparent and less authoritarian.
Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
I travel to mainland China very frequently for my company, however I don't pay taxes there so maybe my opinion should be weighed a little differently. The people I talk generally genuinely are really happy with the regime though. People respect the hell out of Xi, and faith in the central government combined with the Maoist nationalism that still prevails as the dominant form of identity for most mainland Chinese you…
I am not sure what class of people you tend to speak to when you visit, but in my experience the mindset you are describing is something mostly held by a subset of upper middle class Chinese who have enjoyed prosperity under Xi and don't want to rock the boat. While living here i have spoken to plenty of people who do not parrot the party line. Even in the middle class there are a lot who don't like it when the gover…
The government here also has significant problems with management of immigration and with ownership of neighborhoods; the words used are different, Americans call it "gentrification," but the effect is the same when an entire population in a city is displaced from the place they live because they cannot afford the housing. Cities also kick out street vendors, fine delivery drivers, and so on via the network of laws around zoning, habitation, and usage. And the poor in the US are also concerned about rising income inequality and gentrification.
I think I'm inclined to agree that the cultures are not that much different. And many Americans accept or advocate for this status quo also.
Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am not sure what class of people you tend to speak to when you visit, but in my experience the mindset you are describing is something mostly held by a subset of upper middle class Chinese who have enjoyed prosperity under Xi and don't want to rock the boat. While living here i have spoken to plenty of people who do not parrot the party line. Even in the middle class there are a lot who don't like it when the gover…
While the details are different, it's interesting how many of these criticisms can be applied to the United States as well. The government here also has significant problems with management of immigration and with ownership of neighborhoods; the words used are different, Americans call it "gentrification," but the effect is the same when an entire population in a city is displaced from the place they live because the…
Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
While it's obvious that some information is numerically greater than no information, it's not obvious that a censored flow of information makes anyone's life better than the alternatives. When the information flow is all-or-nothing (either you get the full uncensored fire-hose, or you get nothing and whole sites/services are blocked due to censorship), the citizen at least knows they're being censored, and then the b…
> the citizen at least knows they're being censored Since your argument revolve around this, do you know if this is correct? As in, people in China does not know they're being censored?