Effect of Weight Loss on Obstructive Sleep Apnea: The Importance of Tongue Fat • Hacker News Board

Re: Effect of Weight Loss on Obstructive Sleep Apnea: The Importance of Tongue Fat

#131

Post by xref » Sat, Jan 11, 2020, 9:48 AM UTC

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #42

john_moscow wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In reaction to that, it is important to understand that for many people weight loss is neither practical nor maintainable and for that reason it is critical that we continue to advance our treatment of things like sleep apnea. Sorry, but I have to call BS on that. Having lost ~50 lbs last year (after my blood pressure started getting scary), I can tell you it's all about planning and self-discipline. You plan a diet…

> Sorry, but I have to call BS on that. Having lost ~50 lbs last year (after my blood pressure started getting scary), I can tell you it's all about planning and self-discipline. Ah, I see, you have the highest possible qualifications in the medical field! > instead of giving them a strong motivation to resolve the underlying cause. OK, so, please explain, then, how you treat, for example, various thyroid problems th…

Don’t know why you’re being downvoted when the parent is saying there’s no valid medical reasons that make weight loss difficult. Quite a few people making absurd comments like that in this thread.

And yes thyroid problems make it amazingly difficult to manage your weight.

Re: Effect of Weight Loss on Obstructive Sleep Apnea: The Importance of Tongue Fat

#132

Post by sneak » Sat, Jan 11, 2020, 3:49 PM UTC

speedplane wrote: post #130

DiffEq wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you don't have to be "a dick" to shame somebody. Just tell them the truth and help them realize the toll they take on society and themselves when they choose certain actions over others. When they come to realize and understand the truth they will feel the shame they ought to feel...and thus pay a small part of the cost to others that they have incurred. Do you believe that a smoker that has thrown a cigarette o…

> Their obesity exacts great cost to the medical system that we all have to bear, it takes from their productivity that they could offer to others (society and their own family) and benefit from themselves in a multitude of ways. This complaint runs into a more fundamental dispute: freedom versus collectivism. In a purely libertarian world, everyone would be absolutely free to do whatever they want. In a completely s…

> When considering a ban on a particular individual behavior (e.g., eating too much), it's perfectly reasonable to talk about the larger social harms (e.g., increased medical costs). But it's also important to consider the freedoms that are being taken away by such a policy (e.g., the freedom to eat what you want).

You get both individual freedom and remove the harm to others from obesity if you stop forcing service providers to work for free.

The only reason that people who choose to become obese are a drain on others is because there is currently a mechanism for them to force others to absorb the cost of their resulting health care.

Make it so that people have to pay for healthcare for themselves either out of pocket or via insurance instead of forcing hospitals to serve all comers (like any other service that is provided to people), and suddenly you get the best of both worlds: everyone gets to eat what they want, smoke what they want, inject what they want, and nobody else is forced to pay for the poor decisions of anyone else. Everybody wins.

Re: Effect of Weight Loss on Obstructive Sleep Apnea: The Importance of Tongue Fat

#133

Post by speedplane » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 9:53 AM UTC

sneak wrote: post #132

speedplane wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their obesity exacts great cost to the medical system that we all have to bear, it takes from their productivity that they could offer to others (society and their own family) and benefit from themselves in a multitude of ways. This complaint runs into a more fundamental dispute: freedom versus collectivism. In a purely libertarian world, everyone would be absolutely free to do whatever they want. In a completely s…

> When considering a ban on a particular individual behavior (e.g., eating too much), it's perfectly reasonable to talk about the larger social harms (e.g., increased medical costs). But it's also important to consider the freedoms that are being taken away by such a policy (e.g., the freedom to eat what you want). You get both individual freedom and remove the harm to others from obesity if you stop forcing service…

> Make it so that people have to pay for healthcare for themselves either out of pocket or via insurance instead of forcing hospitals to serve all comers (like any other service that is provided to people), and suddenly you get the best of both worlds: everyone gets to eat what they want, smoke what they want, inject what they want, and nobody else is forced to pay for the poor decisions of anyone else. Everybody wins.

Unfortunately, your argument runs into an opposite extreme. Yes, freedom is important, but it's not the only thing that's important. There is different, but similarly strong argument that society should preserve life.

Freedom dictates that people should be allowed to do what they want, even if it causes self-harm. Life preservation dictates that we should do whatever it takes to preserve life. Both of these values are are pretty fundamental, baked into most religions and political philosophies. Sometimes however, as in the case you point out, these two values butt against each other.

The answer is not to choose one or the other, but to properly balance them.

Re: Effect of Weight Loss on Obstructive Sleep Apnea: The Importance of Tongue Fat

#134

Post by sneak » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

speedplane wrote: post #133

sneak wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When considering a ban on a particular individual behavior (e.g., eating too much), it's perfectly reasonable to talk about the larger social harms (e.g., increased medical costs). But it's also important to consider the freedoms that are being taken away by such a policy (e.g., the freedom to eat what you want). You get both individual freedom and remove the harm to others from obesity if you stop forcing service…

> Make it so that people have to pay for healthcare for themselves either out of pocket or via insurance instead of forcing hospitals to serve all comers (like any other service that is provided to people), and suddenly you get the best of both worlds: everyone gets to eat what they want, smoke what they want, inject what they want, and nobody else is forced to pay for the poor decisions of anyone else. Everybody win…

Forcing people to pay for things at gunpoint that they do not wish to buy is pretty far down the list of acceptable trade-offs, in my book.

It’s absolutely not an extreme view. We already do this for food, for example, which is also required to support life. Being hungry does not entitle you to steal from a supermarket, under our system.

Forcing hospitals to treat anyone regardless of ability to pay is really just forcing an unfair tax onto everyone else who happens to use that hospital in the form of increased prices. That’s not a reasonable system.

Re: Effect of Weight Loss on Obstructive Sleep Apnea: The Importance of Tongue Fat

#135

Post by zachrose » Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 3:36 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #62

zachrose wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also did you have a working kitchen? Access to a decent grocery store? Were you free from constant stress about how you would pay rent?

People don’t have those things any more than they do now 50 years ago when people weighed less.

They also didn't have grocery stores full of elaborate corn subsidy byproducts.

Re: Effect of Weight Loss on Obstructive Sleep Apnea: The Importance of Tongue Fat

#136

Post by sdwa » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 11:20 AM UTC

forthac wrote: post #73

sdwa wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Losing weight is hard (speaking from experience), but ultimately it's still just a question of physics. Eat less, eat food which will fill you for longer (breakfast: porridge, lunch: fruit, nuts, etc.), and eat a reasonably healthy meal you've cooked each night. Meanwhile, eat smaller portions and do some exercise. Your body can't defy the laws of physics, so you will lose weight. It is that simple. Overthinking it a…

This is the same dismissive, ignorant, platitudinal advice that the parent commentator was directly referring to. I find it supremely hilarious that you refer to the person's own body as an external factor.

The truth is, it's none of those things. I am just unwilling to indulge people's fantasies on this issue, because I've lived through it having been clinically obese myself in the past.

>I find it supremely hilarious that you refer to the person's own body as an external factor.

It's external in the sense that we have no control over our DNA, which is implicitly being blamed when one speaks of one's own predisposition towards weight gain. It's not that funny.