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I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

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Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#171

Post by jonny_eh »

tharne wrote: post #39
suddenexample wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always a bit taken aback by the heat that Google gets for even thinking about breaking into the Chinese market. Microsoft is in China and has active US military contracts. Apple is in China. Yet it's Google that gets the bad rap for trying to get into China and then ultimately turning down billions of dollars in revenue and data.

I think a lot of this has to do with how much self-congratulating google has engaged in over the years around ethics. They set very high expectations, boasted about it, then fell very short. What you're seeing in people's reactions is disappointment. No one's ever seen Microsoft as an ethical company, so no one bats an eye when they enter the Chinese market and embrace the questionable ethics of the Chinese governmen…

But is that really deserving of a grilling in Congress? Just for be hypocritical?

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#172

Post by [deleted] »

shadowgovt wrote: post #169
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who are we as westerners to say that our system of governance is better than theirs? Nobody is advocating overthrowing Xi Jinping. But if you're in America, benefiting from the freedoms afforded to Americans (and their fruits), it's fair to ask you don't undermine those values at home or abroad.

Is it also fair to ask a company that does business in a country to not undermine the values of that country?

[deleted]

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#173

Post by lolc »

elldoubleyew wrote: post #151
Seenso wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google hired a significant number of Chinese citizens and migrants who didn't leave China for political reasons. Not surprisingly, they tend not to see China's government policy as evil. It takes years in the right environment for someone like that to start to think differently. All kinds of important facts and ideas were kept from them, much of it random things that don't come up often that they may not even reali…

I don't understand this philosophy of "if only they could change their minds" The current regime has broken records year over year and almost the entire population is happy with them. Chinese people are better off every single day. Who are we as westerners to say that our system of governance is better than theirs? How can you be so sure that their system will inevitably be bad for the people? Just because an absolut…

I find China's productivity impressive. We can observe that wealth is increasing for a big part of the population and that is a good thing!

Still the test for me is how a society treats its weakest members. And in China, one is severely restricted to even talk about its weakest members! That hampers everybody in knowing how they're doing. In light of the information we outsiders have, the censorship is hurting these people. I'm not willing to accept this oppression as a matter Chinese citizens are best equipped to decide when they are not allowed to learn the facts.

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#174

Post by hintymad »

virtuous_signal wrote: post #10

I don't have firsthand knowledge, but my conjecture is that the old Google probably had a significant % of employees who held the belief "We shouldn't censor for China, even if that makes us lose money". But over a period of years, whatever they selected for in hiring led to enough people joining, who don't give a damn about human rights in China, so the censorship went ahead. The only thing that stopped it was bad p…

I find it very strange in the logic of these Google employees. A censored Google in China will still be miles better than the next alternative, Baidu. Wouldn't it be true that a better search engine will keep people better informed, for which people will have better chance of improving their lives, even their political systems?

And now Google employees, with their all righteousness, are claiming that Chinese people don't deserve a much better product, because they need to suffer for these employees' political ideal? If this is not hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#175

Post by alisonatwork »

elldoubleyew wrote: post #151
Seenso wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google hired a significant number of Chinese citizens and migrants who didn't leave China for political reasons. Not surprisingly, they tend not to see China's government policy as evil. It takes years in the right environment for someone like that to start to think differently. All kinds of important facts and ideas were kept from them, much of it random things that don't come up often that they may not even reali…

I don't understand this philosophy of "if only they could change their minds" The current regime has broken records year over year and almost the entire population is happy with them. Chinese people are better off every single day. Who are we as westerners to say that our system of governance is better than theirs? How can you be so sure that their system will inevitably be bad for the people? Just because an absolut…

I live and work in mainland China, and the government here pisses me off. Yeah, i am a foreigner, but this is my home. I pay taxes here. I deserve to have my voice heard. The Chinese government is trash.

Because i am a foreigner the worst that could happen from me voicing such an opinion is the government doesn't renew my work visa. For Han, it could affect their social credit rating. For ethnic minorities it could land them or their families in "reeducation camps".

That's the trick of authoritarian regimes. If you just shut up and do whatever the government says, they won't bother you (unless you are rich enough to bother extorting). But if you make a noise, you are screwed. That's the reason why everyone you talk to is allegedly happy with the regime. It's not in their interests to be anything else.

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#177

Post by whamlastxmas »

michalu wrote: post #155

Yes, Google isn't "don't be evil" anymore. People forget that what's left without Google is Microsoft, Oracle and the likes whose business strategy is outright racketeering. Today I wanted to check out one of the services by Oracle - (Datafox), on the page it promotes free trial, just sign up for Oracle Cloud, give phone number, credit card all details ... after all is verified there's no service, you have to pay the…

I looked at Oracle's page for Datafox and there's no mention of a trial anywhere. I searched on google for a trial and the only page that exists is one that is clearly from before Oracle bought Datafox and it doesn't even load properly.

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#178

Post by elldoubleyew »

alisonatwork wrote: post #175
elldoubleyew wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this philosophy of "if only they could change their minds" The current regime has broken records year over year and almost the entire population is happy with them. Chinese people are better off every single day. Who are we as westerners to say that our system of governance is better than theirs? How can you be so sure that their system will inevitably be bad for the people? Just because an absolut…

I live and work in mainland China, and the government here pisses me off. Yeah, i am a foreigner, but this is my home. I pay taxes here. I deserve to have my voice heard. The Chinese government is trash. Because i am a foreigner the worst that could happen from me voicing such an opinion is the government doesn't renew my work visa. For Han, it could affect their social credit rating. For ethnic minorities it could l…

I travel to mainland China very frequently for my company, however I don't pay taxes there so maybe my opinion should be weighed a little differently.

The people I talk generally genuinely are really happy with the regime though. People respect the hell out of Xi, and faith in the central government combined with the Maoist nationalism that still prevails as the dominant form of identity for most mainland Chinese you see the average citizen that really has no criticisms of the government.

I've had conversations with Chinese people before about the American bipartisan system and free speech vs the Chinese counterparts and usually they come to this conclusion: "Americas system works for America, Chinas system works for China. If people could say whatever they want here there would be much more trouble, if there were multiple competing political parties they would be at each others throats in a way that makes Americas current polarization look like a beautiful political climate".

Let what works for China continue to work for China, and what works for us continue to work for us. People, cultures, and ideas are different depending on where and how you were raised. The ideas that made the west great don't necessarily work for everyone.

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#179

Post by amylene »

throwlaplace wrote: post #44
amylene wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

does any amount of exploitation poison the well, and swing the pendulum towards net evil?

Doesn't it? Do the ends ever justify the means? Besides here we're talking about getting rich rather than averting war or curing disease or something.

That’s pretty black and white, considering the subjective nature of defining exploitation.

And sometimes when people get rich, they add value to the world. The getting rich may be the goal, but it can also help other people too.

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#180

Post by mkolodny »

song wrote: post #79
mkolodny wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For regular people in China, does the addition of Google with some censorship make their life better? I don't think so. If Chinese people want to use Google, then they have to use a VPN. And if Chinese people use a VPN, their search results won't be censored. If Google releases a censored search engine in China, then people will have less incentive to access an uncensored one.

The problem is that it is becoming harder and harder to just use a VPN to the point where a lot of people no longer bother. There's value in information being easily accessible

If Chinese people want to access censored information, they have Baidu.
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