Boeing employees mocked FAA in internal messages before 737 Max disasters • Hacker News Board

Re: Boeing employees mocked FAA in internal messages before 737 Max disasters

#201

Post by x86_64Ubuntu » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

elcomet wrote: post #185

phire wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as they give pilots proper training, I'd actually rather fly on the recertified MAX than certain other Boeing planes. They have gone though the whole plane with a fine toothed comb, Identifying any other potential problems. It will probably be the safest Boeing in the sky. This whole MAX situation has made me very nervous about flying on the 787 (built in the same era) or the 737 NG (while it lacks MCAS, some…

What if they missed another flaw ? Some older boeing planes have been flying for years without an issue, I'd rather fly on those.

Yep, the issue is the culture and the idea of "we are going to make subtle yet fatal changes to the plane, but not require pilots to learn about these changes" that's got everyone shook.

Re: Boeing employees mocked FAA in internal messages before 737 Max disasters

#202

Post by s1artibartfast » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

xiphias2 wrote: post #164

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define bad. As a cyclist in Europe I breathe in fumes from VWs diesel engines on a daily basis. I'm wondering how shorter the lifespan for me and others like me will be in the long run. I'd say that's pretty bad but as the deaths are not instantaneous, the long term damage is difficult to quantify.

My suggestion is to just stop doing it, especially if you start sleeping worse (the first symptom if you're affected). My life was ruined by not caring about living near a highway even though I easily had the money to get into a better apartment. Now for the past 5 years (I'm 38 now) my life is about trying to find places with clean enough air, which is much harder and more expensive in winter time. I'm always lookin…

Do you have any information you can share regarding the highway? I live next to one

Re: Boeing employees mocked FAA in internal messages before 737 Max disasters

#203

Post by wayoutthere » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

kingraoul3 wrote: post #200

wayoutthere wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, the decision to change it from using 2 sensors to 1 sensor was specifically because if the system used 2 sensors it was considered a safety system requiring simulator training for the failure scenarios. IMO Boeing should be required to separate the military and civilian parts of the company and allow the military side to build civilian aircraft based on existing civilian models. I honestly thi…

Restructuring is a prudent proposal, but jail time is needed.

I don't disagree, but I don't think you can find a single person who is fully responsible for the failures. This was an institutional failure caused by a combination of regulatory capture and erosion of the firewall between sales and engineering.

Re: Boeing employees mocked FAA in internal messages before 737 Max disasters

#204

Post by bradstewart » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

zajd wrote: post #172

phire wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as they give pilots proper training, I'd actually rather fly on the recertified MAX than certain other Boeing planes. They have gone though the whole plane with a fine toothed comb, Identifying any other potential problems. It will probably be the safest Boeing in the sky. This whole MAX situation has made me very nervous about flying on the 787 (built in the same era) or the 737 NG (while it lacks MCAS, some…

> They have gone though the whole plane with a fine toothed comb, Identifying any other potential problems. It will probably be the safest Boeing in the sky. More like they've done the bare minimum to get the planes back in the air. The entire point of the plane is to avoid having to certify a new frame ie avoid doing exactly what you're implying they've done.

They wanted to avoid a new type certification which would force all existing 737 pilots to be retrained and certificated on this aircraft.

They can go through the whole plane with a fine toothed comb and still end up with a common type.

Re: Boeing employees mocked FAA in internal messages before 737 Max disasters

#205

Post by ls612 » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #196

phire wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as they give pilots proper training, I'd actually rather fly on the recertified MAX than certain other Boeing planes. They have gone though the whole plane with a fine toothed comb, Identifying any other potential problems. It will probably be the safest Boeing in the sky. This whole MAX situation has made me very nervous about flying on the 787 (built in the same era) or the 737 NG (while it lacks MCAS, some…

This [0] makes me nervous about flying on a 787. [0] https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/boeing-787-dreamliner-safet...

The 787 has been in service for 8 years now and has never had a single fatality, never mind a hull loss yet. Your fears may be misplaced.

Re: Boeing employees mocked FAA in internal messages before 737 Max disasters

#206

Post by x86_64Ubuntu » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 4:33 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #10

thaumasiotes wrote: post #3

Geez. > "Would you put your family on a Max simulator trained aircraft? I wouldn't," says one employee to another, who responds, "No." > Peter DeFazio, [D-Oregon], called newly released documents "incredibly damning" That's hard to argue with. You'd like to think this kind of thing would... leak. Who said conspiracies involving hundreds of people are impossible?

How many people in the government knew about the NSA spying on citizens before Snowden finally spilled the info? That was a massive effort involving many (thousands?) of people. Then when Snowden reveals it, his life is destroyed and he’s forced to live in exile. Sends a very strong warning to any other potential do-gooders considering telling the truth.

Before Snowden? Everyone in the tech field knew the US government was spying on everyone WELL before Snowden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A

Re: Boeing employees mocked FAA in internal messages before 737 Max disasters

#207

Post by zxienin » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

djabatt wrote: post #30

This sort of stuff makes me freak out when I find out I am flying on a Boeing product. I expect people that are making aircraft to be better than when this NPR reporting purports.

It’s panicking thought to assume that similar culture and malice doesn’t exist at Airbus, just because they haven’t had their public 737 MAX event yet.

Re: Boeing employees mocked FAA in internal messages before 737 Max disasters

#208

Post by panarky » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

wyxuan wrote: post #6

thaumasiotes wrote: post #3

Geez. > "Would you put your family on a Max simulator trained aircraft? I wouldn't," says one employee to another, who responds, "No." > Peter DeFazio, [D-Oregon], called newly released documents "incredibly damning" That's hard to argue with. You'd like to think this kind of thing would... leak. Who said conspiracies involving hundreds of people are impossible?

Blow your whistle all you want but until something catastrophic happens, the whistleblowers would turn out the way the whistleblowers for the 737ng airframe cracking came out: fired and then ignored.

"This airplane is designed by clowns who in turn are supervised by monkeys."

The monkeys will ruthlessly suppress any evidence that they are monkeys or that they supervise clowns.

Re: Boeing employees mocked FAA in internal messages before 737 Max disasters

#209

Post by xiphias2 » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #202

xiphias2 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My suggestion is to just stop doing it, especially if you start sleeping worse (the first symptom if you're affected). My life was ruined by not caring about living near a highway even though I easily had the money to get into a better apartment. Now for the past 5 years (I'm 38 now) my life is about trying to find places with clean enough air, which is much harder and more expensive in winter time. I'm always lookin…

Do you have any information you can share regarding the highway? I live next to one

The problem is that it all depends on your genes. For many people air pollution doesn't affect them..but I thought it doesn't affect me before it started.

Regarding living close to highways: air pollution close to them are much higher than farther away, and you spend a significant amount of time sleeping at home, so you if you are not lucky, you are affected.

Generally background noise is a good predictor of air pollution in my experience, just open the window, and if you hear cars all the time, you should look for another place to live.

Re: Boeing employees mocked FAA in internal messages before 737 Max disasters

#210

Post by windthrown » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

theprop wrote: post #98

The McDonnell Douglas leadership seems to have put business ahead of engineering (and safety) at Boeing (from other pieces I've read). There are at present just two manufacturers of big planes in the world (China may have a third soon I believe) so it would be terrible for airline safety/efficiency if Boeing did go bankrupt (which is still unlikely) and left just one company with no competition. I think what we shoul…

>The McDonnell Douglas leadership seems to have put business ahead of engineering (and safety) at Boeing (from other pieces I've read)

The merger happened 22+ years ago. When will you start considering the “new” Boeing company to be responsible for their current actions? It’s 2020 and the problems at Boeing are the fault of Boeing, not McDonnell Douglas.