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BeOS: The Alternate Universe's Mac OS X

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Re: BeOS: The Alternate Universe's Mac OS X

#371
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but a technology is only a means to an end, not an end itself. What sells is product. You may have the finest tech on the planet—and that means precisely squat. What counts is putting bums on seats. Your seats. And keeping them there. Limps of tech are just a vehicle for that; to be used, abused, chewed up, and/or discarded on the road(s) to that end. Apple could have done better; they certainly did plenty wors…

I'm not sure I've ever encountered someone so invested in the "great man" theory of history. Jobs was obviously talented, but assuming no matter where he went he would have had the same level of success is discounting a lot of luck in how everything lined up,and who was available to help bring all the things to market jobs is famous for. There's no guarantee the hundreds or thousands of people that were also essentia…

“Those people deserve respect and recognition too.”

ORLY? Name them.

--

Not “great man”. Great vision.

Geeks tend massively to overrate the importance technical aptitude, which is what they’re good at, and underrate everything else—business experience, sales skills, market savvy, and other soft skills—which they’re not.

Contrast someone like Jobs, who understood the technical side well enough to be able to surround himself with high-quality technical people and communicate effectively with them, but make no mistake: they were there to deliver his vision, not their own.

Tech-exclusive geeks a useful resource, but they have to be kept on a zero-length leash lest they start thinking that they should be the ones in charge since they know more about tech than anyone else. And the moment they’re allowed to get away with it, and you end up with the tails-wagging-the-dog internecine malfunction that plagued Sculley’s Apple in the 90s and has to some extent resurfaced under Cook.

Lots of things happened under Jobs 2.0. That was NEVER one of them.

..

Case in point: Just take the endless gushing geek love for Cook-Apple’s Swift language. And then look at how little the iOS platform itself has moved forward over the 10 years, it’s taken to [partly] replace ObjC with the only incrementally improved Swift. When NeXT created what is now AppKit, it was 20 years ahead of its time. Now it’s a good ten behind, and massively devalued to boot by the rotten impedance-mismatch between ObjC/Cococa’s Smalltalk-inspired model and Swift’s C++-like semantics.

Had Jobs not passed, I seriously doubt Lattner’s pet project would ever have advanced to the point of daylight. Steve would’ve looked at it and asked: How can it add to Apple’s existing investments? And then told Lattner to chuck it, and create an “Objective-C 3.0”; that is, the smallest delta between what they already had (ObjC 2.0) and the modern, safe, easy-to-use (type-inferred, no-nonsense) language they so pressingly needed.

..

Look, I don’t doubt eventually Apple will migrate all but the large legacy productivity apps like Office and CC away from AppKit and ObjC and onto Swift and SwiftUI. But whose interest does that really serve? The ten million geeks who get paid for writing and rewriting all that code, and have huge fun squandering millions of development-hours doing so? Or the billion users, who for years see minimal progress or improvement in their iOS app experience?

Not to put too a fine a point on it: if Google Android is failing to capitalize on iPhone’s Swift-induced stall-out by charging ahead in that time, it’s only because it has the same geek-serving internal dysfunction undermining its own ability to innovate and advance the USER product experience.

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TL;DR: I’ve launched a tech startup, [mis]run it, and cratered it. And that was with with a genuinely unique, groundbreaking, and already working tech with the product potential to revolutionize a major chunk of trillion-dollar global industry, saving and generating customers billions of dollars a year.

It’s an experience that has given me a whole new appreciation for what another nobody person starting out of his garage, and with his own false starts and failures, was ultimately able to build.

And I would trade 20 years of programming process for just one day of salesmanship from Steve Jobs’ left toe, and know I’d got the best deal by far. Like I say, this is not about a person. It is about having the larger vision and having the skills to deliver it.

Re: BeOS: The Alternate Universe's Mac OS X

#372
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NeXTSTEP pretty directly evolved into iOS, though, so it was certainly a significant asset in the acquisition, too.

NeXTSTEP appears to have first gotten incorporated throughly into the OS X codebase. Browse through the Foundation library for the Mac - https://developer.apple.com/documentation/foundation/ . Everything that starts with NS was part of NextStep.

It didn't get 'incorporated'.

OSX/macOS/iOS is the latest evolution of NeXTStep/Mach which originated in the Aleph (and other) academic kernels.

(of course OS's evolve pretty far in a few decades...)

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_(kernel))

Re: BeOS: The Alternate Universe's Mac OS X

#373
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember circa 2000 being able to simultaneously compile Mozilla, transfer DV video from a camcorder into an editor, check email, and surf the web on a dual Pentium Pro system with no hint of UI stutter or dropped frames in the firewire video transfer. It was at least another decade before SSDs and kernel improvements made that possible on Linux, Windows, or OS X.

The tradeoff was the throughput of your compilation was terrible. BeOS wasn't magic, it just prioritized the UI over all else. That's not advanced, it's just one possible choice. MacOS prior to OS X had the same property: literally nothing else could happen at the same time if the user was moving the mouse, which is why you had to take the ball out of the mouse before burning a CD-R on that operating system.

Oh, sure, it was obviously limiting the other tasks. The point was that this is almost always the right choice for a general purpose operating system: no user wants to have their music skip, UI go unresponsive, file transfers to fail, etc. because the OS devoted resources to a batch process.

You’re only partially correct about classic macOS: you could definitely hang the OS by holding down the mouse button but this wasn’t a problem for playing music, burning CD-Rs, etc. in normal usage unless you had the cheapest of low-end setups because a small buffer would usually suffice. I worked with a bunch of graphic designers back then and they didn’t get coasters at a significant rate or more than their Windows-using counterparts, and they burned a lot of them since our clients couldn’t get large files over a network connection faster than weeks.

Re: BeOS: The Alternate Universe's Mac OS X

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I've ever encountered someone so invested in the "great man" theory of history. Jobs was obviously talented, but assuming no matter where he went he would have had the same level of success is discounting a lot of luck in how everything lined up,and who was available to help bring all the things to market jobs is famous for. There's no guarantee the hundreds or thousands of people that were also essentia…

You forgot his family had been the largest share holder of Disney not because Steve got apple. He is VERY successful to the point he even gave up getting anything but an private jet. That is billion of course but that is not success. What is. And unlike v1 v2 seems better on human level as well. We do not need saint. He still parked in space for hadicapped only I guess. But let us admit, it is not just one for all. B…

ISTR a tale of Legal keeping a large slush fund from which to pay off all the ex-Apple-employees that Steve 2.0 would straight tell to their face to fuck off. Just because that is what worked best for him†. :)

“But let us admit, it is not just one for all. But all for one.”

Damn straight. Epically focused leadership.

--

(† For all others who aspire to build their own businesses, there is HR procedure and askamanager.org—and do not for the life of you ever bypass either!)

Re: BeOS: The Alternate Universe's Mac OS X

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I've ever encountered someone so invested in the "great man" theory of history. Jobs was obviously talented, but assuming no matter where he went he would have had the same level of success is discounting a lot of luck in how everything lined up,and who was available to help bring all the things to market jobs is famous for. There's no guarantee the hundreds or thousands of people that were also essentia…

You forgot his family had been the largest share holder of Disney not because Steve got apple. He is VERY successful to the point he even gave up getting anything but an private jet. That is billion of course but that is not success. What is. And unlike v1 v2 seems better on human level as well. We do not need saint. He still parked in space for hadicapped only I guess. But let us admit, it is not just one for all. B…

[deleted]

Re: BeOS: The Alternate Universe's Mac OS X

#377
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot his family had been the largest share holder of Disney not because Steve got apple. He is VERY successful to the point he even gave up getting anything but an private jet. That is billion of course but that is not success. What is. And unlike v1 v2 seems better on human level as well. We do not need saint. He still parked in space for hadicapped only I guess. But let us admit, it is not just one for all. B…

ISTR a tale of Legal keeping a large slush fund from which to pay off all the ex-Apple-employees that Steve 2.0 would straight tell to their face to fuck off. Just because that is what worked best for him †. :) “But let us admit, it is not just one for all. But all for one.” Damn straight. Epically focused leadership. -- († For all others who aspire to build their own businesses, there is HR procedure and askamanager…

>Epically focused leadership. Just to support that, I remember hearing a story told by Larry Elison (they were apparently neighbours for a while), where he would pop over to see Steve, and would be subjected to the 100th viewing of Toy Story where Jobs was obsessively pointing out every new tiny improvement they'd made in the story or graphics.

Epically focused indeed.

Re: BeOS: The Alternate Universe's Mac OS X

#378
That's sad Haiku won't get traction. An viable alternative on the desktop PC OS market would be a great thing to have (even on a commercial basis, not necessarily for free). Linux for 1% geeks, MacOS X for Apple hardware owners and Windows for everybody else does not seem like a healthy competition.

Android, iOS, Chrome, Facebook - everything is monopolized nowadays. Governments should really consider supporting alternative OSes, browsers and social networks for sake of national security as the monopolies enjoy too much power over the whole humanity nowadays.

Re: BeOS: The Alternate Universe's Mac OS X

#379

Ah, memories. Used to use BeOS as my primary OS for a year or two. I think it's the only OS I ever found to be truly intuitive and pleasant to work with. That said, I don't think the world would be in a better place had Apple chosen Be over NeXT. The elephant in the room is security: NeXTSTEP, being Unix-based, has some amount of security baked in from the ground up. BeOS didn't; it was more akin to Windows 95 or cla…

> Used to use BeOS as my primary OS for a year or two. I think it's the only OS I ever found to be truly intuitive and pleasant to work with.

I love everything I've read about BeOS but to be honest I must mention I couldn't understand how to use Haiku (I've never used the original BeOS) once I've tried - id didn't feel intuitive at all. And I'm not really stupid, I've been using different flavors of Linux as a primary OS for over a decade.

> That said, I don't think the world would be in a better place had Apple chosen Be over NeXT. The elephant in the room is security: NeXTSTEP, being Unix-based, has some amount of security baked in from the ground up. BeOS didn't; it was more akin to Windows 95 or classic Mac OS on that front.

Some times I miss the days of Windows 95 so much. I wish desktop OSes could be more simple, i.e. without multi-user and file access rights. When it's my own personal computer all I want of it from the security perspective is to prevent others from unlocking it or recovering data from it and to prevent any network communication except that I authorized. Sadly Linux still doesn't even have a decent implementation of the latter (Mac has LittleSnitch).

Windows 9x did pretty well for me - I've never caught a virus, never corrupted a system file and it was easy to fix for others who did.

Re: BeOS: The Alternate Universe's Mac OS X

#380
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a bunch of the methods we have for securing, say, mobile phones, grew out of user accounts. Personally I don't know Android innards deeply, but when I was trying to backup and restore a rooted phone I did notice that every app's files have a different owner uid/gid and the apps typically won't launch without that set up correctly. So it would seem they implemented per-app separation in this instance by having a u…

Then you'd maybe get something like iOS, where the POSIX uid practically does not matter at all, and the strong security and separation is provided by other mechanisms like entitlements... Someone else pointed out that BeOS allegedly had "quality and security" problems in general (I myself have no idea), so that may indeed have led to problems down the line, whereas BSD was pretty solid. But I agree with the OP and d…

Yeah. Funny enough, if Apple had skipped OS X and gone directly to iOS, BeOS would have been a superior foundation. No uselessly mismatched security model or crusty legacy API baggage to clog up the new revolution in single-user always-online low-powered mobile devices.

Of course, that was in back in the days when an entire platform from hardware to userland could be exclusively optimized to utterly and comprehensively smash it in just one very specific and precisely targeted market. Which is, of course, exactly what the iPhone was.

Just as the first Apple Macintosh a decade earlier eschewed not only multi-user, multi-process, and even a kernel; every single bit and cycle its being being exclusive dedicated to delivering a revolutionary consumer UI experience instead!

In comparison, NeXTSTEP, which ultimately became iOS, is just one great huge glorious bodge. “Worse is Better” indeed!

..

Honesly, poor Be was just really unlucky in timing: a few years too late to usurp SGI; a few too early to take the vast online rich-content-streaming world all for its own. Just imagine… a BeOS-based smartphone hitting the global market in 2000, complete with live streaming AV media and conferencing from launch! And Oh!, how every Mac OS and Windows neckbeards would’ve screamed at that!:)

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