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For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

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Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#311

Post by DanBC »

eplanit wrote: post #156
gremlinsinc wrote: post #2

I wonder what would happen to the suicide rate with medicare for all, and creating a max-wage that is (avg of contractors + employees * 150), or something similar, w/ additional 'bonus' multipliers for increasing # of U.S. hired. UBI would also probably help. As a freelancer I've had some really slim months and depression hits hard when money is tight. There's a very direct correlation between income security, insecu…

There is no statistical support of these ideas, though. Suicide rates in countries with Socialist economies are higher than in the U.S. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...

I feel like everyone posting the link to that article needs to also post this quote from it in their comment.

> The WHO statistics are based on the official reports from each respective country, therefore are no more accurate than the record-keeping in the specific country, and revisions (updates) are usually performed as well.

> In much of the world, suicide is stigmatized and condemned for religious or cultural reasons. In some countries, suicidal behaviour is a criminal offence punishable by law. Suicide is therefore often a secretive act surrounded by taboo, and may be unrecognized, misclassified or deliberately hidden in official records of death.[3]

It is very hard to compare rates of suicide across countries.

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#312

Post by DanBC »

whiddershins wrote: post #96
claudeganon wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s something obviously wrong with the U.S. because suicide is now the second leading cause of death among young people and has jumped 50+ percent since the Great Recession: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/06/opinion/suicide-young-peo...

What would you prefer the second-leading cause of death be for young people? I am being serious. Some things have to be the top causes of death for young people and the list definitionally can’t include the aspirational “old age.”

Suicide is a mostly preventable death. If suicide is the second leading cause of death, ahead of non-preventable forms of death, something is wrong.

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#313

Post by DanBC »

whiddershins wrote: post #287
claudeganon wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teen/young adult suicides are now occurring at the highest rate since we’ve been keeping statistics (1960): https://www.latimes.com/science/la-sci-suicide-rates-rising-... So there’s unequivocally a spike. The only argument you could really make is that suicide rates have been rising across the US since 1999, up in most states and up by 30% in half of all states, making youth suicide of a part with the broader trend.…

CDC chart does not show what you are saying it shows: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6630a6.htm

I don't understand. That chart shows very clearly that youth rates of death by suicide have gone up since 1999. It shows a climb from 10.x in 2007 to 14.x in 2015. That's not quite a third, but it's not far off.

More importantly it shows that deaths from suicide are i: no longer declining and ii: increasing.

This increase appears to happen around 2007 onwards -- this is when we had worldwide financial insecurity, with things like the sub-prime mortgage crisis.

We know financial insecurity is a driver for higher rates of death by suicide, and we have a good idea that the financial problems in 2007 drove some of the increase.

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#314

Post by DanBC »

austincheney wrote: post #178
everly wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe that you can’t see any correlation but here you go: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24121465/ https://www.allure.com/story/suicide-debt-link

False correlation. Take this damning quote from your second link: > Data analysis from a 2013 study published in the journal Clinical Psychology Review shows that those who died by suicide were eight times more likely to be in debt. Correlation does not imply causation. To illustrate the silliness when the related items are transposed the statement becomes absurdly false even though the logic remains identical: perso…

> the statement becomes absurdly false even though the logic remains identical: persons in debt are 8 times more likely to be suicidal

Why do you think this is absurd? How are you defining "suicidal"?

There's good reasons why reputable organisations involved in suicide prevention recognise financial difficulty as a risk factor (one of many) for suicide.

http://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=38469

> 156. Patients who died in the first week after leaving hospital were more likely than those who died later after discharge to have a diagnosis of personality disorder (15% v. 10%). Over half (52%) had experienced recent adverse life events, especially financial (25%) and family problems (23%).

https://www.hqip.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/8iQSvI.pd...

> Although under 20s and 20-24 year olds had many antecedents in common, there was a changing pattern,reflecting the stresses experienced at different ages. Academic pressures and bullying were more common before suicide in under 20s, while workplace, housing and financial problems occurred more often in 20-24 year olds

https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/default-source/improving-care...

> Factors that should be recorded in an initial assessment of social circumstances include, but are not limited to: (i) family members, significant others or carers who can provide support; (ii) dependents; (iii) housing; (iv) personal or financial proble

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#315

Post by DanBC »

rayiner wrote: post #196
pkaye wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nearly a 2x difference in rate between white and native americans vs blacks, asians and hispanics. I'm wondering if there is a good understanding of that difference. I don't think it is just economic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States#/...

I mean the data by race suggests it’s not economic, right? Black, Hispanic, and Asian people have half the suicide rate of non-Hispanic white people. Another anomaly: Hispanic people have the second highest life expectancies in the United States (after Asians), significantly higher than non-Hispanic whites, despite on average having lower incomes and health insurance coeverage.

But Black people with financial problems have a higher rate than Black people without financial problems.

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#316

Post by austincheney »

madddiagnosis wrote: post #275
austincheney wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False correlation. Take this damning quote from your second link: > Data analysis from a 2013 study published in the journal Clinical Psychology Review shows that those who died by suicide were eight times more likely to be in debt. Correlation does not imply causation. To illustrate the silliness when the related items are transposed the statement becomes absurdly false even though the logic remains identical: perso…

Having debt may not be a mental health illness, but mental health illnesses are significantly exacerbated by debt. I was discharged from a mental health ward 3 weeks ago after an unsuccessful suicide attempt. My brother was murdered a year ago and I've been struggling with depression since. I lose my job a few months ago and money has been tight in my household, to the point where I began to see myself as nothing but…

Did you know that army medics are 3x more likely to be diagnosed with PTSD than army infantrymen encountering combat? Likewise being a combat medic/doctor isn’t an illness. There is no discussion of eliminating those jobs to save people from mental health illnesses. Even if those jobs and/or debt were eliminated there is no reason to suggest the persons at potential risk of such illnesses would cured from the risk of such.

Teenage homosexuality is another high suicide pattern. Nobody is suggesting treating juvenile sexual orientation.

Since suicide is the result of mental health illness and mental health illnesses are a medical problem would you agree that it’s safe to say it is something that demands medical attention? Medical doctors treating that condition don’t throw the patient into a finance class to hear about managing debt or give the patient money to relieve the financial distress. The subject of financial crisis isn’t treated at all.

Many things can have an effect on persons with illnesses. The goal of a doctor is to treat the illness and lower the pain. They do this through a combination of observation, medication, and counseling.

Ignoring the medicine and medical aspect of suicide to focus purely on financial management, as so many in this thread suggest, will likely result in a sharp increase in suicidal completion.

If advocating against such harm and ignorance costs me all my HN karma I am ok with that. I am not afraid of being stuck in an echo chamber.

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#317

Post by imtringued »

14 wrote: post #169
emptybits wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re/ medicare for all ... Canada has universal health care yet a very similar suicide rate to the USA.[1] Canada doesn't have a livable minimum wage either. Each province sets its own. There is talk of UBI experiments. [1] https://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2011/02/us-vs-can...

I really hope we do not get a UBI in any current forms. I know the second the stores realize that every person now has 'x' amount of dollars to spend, they will raise the prices to match the most they can extract. What I wish Canada would do instead is establish some sort of Universal Basic Rights like every man woman and child is entitled to 5lbs of potatoes a week, 1 gallon of milk, 1 pound of carrots, ect. I as a…

Financing a UBI is extremely difficult. It makes more sense to raise the minimum wage and introduce a "guaranteed minimum wage". It would be very similar to a UBI except you need a job and it only covers 1/2 of the difference between what a job pays and the official minimum wage. The downside is that there is still a lot of room for abuse but earning a $ through working is still twice as valuable as earning a dollar through the minimum wage so in the end economics prevail and a welfare trap is avoided. It also means that if you hate your job you can switch to a lower paid one and still receive some support. Bad jobs will face a lower supply of workers which will force companies to raise their wages to match the working conditions.

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#318

Post by imtringued »

anm89 wrote: post #269
14 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope we do not get a UBI in any current forms. I know the second the stores realize that every person now has 'x' amount of dollars to spend, they will raise the prices to match the most they can extract. What I wish Canada would do instead is establish some sort of Universal Basic Rights like every man woman and child is entitled to 5lbs of potatoes a week, 1 gallon of milk, 1 pound of carrots, ect. I as a…

Serious question. What if you don't like potatoes? This sounds like a dystopian nightmare.

It's not a dystopian nightmare but the parent completely ignores the practicality of the law. There is a reason why food stamps exist and it's because we don't know what they want to eat or can eat.

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#319

Post by madddiagnosis »

austincheney wrote: post #316
madddiagnosis wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having debt may not be a mental health illness, but mental health illnesses are significantly exacerbated by debt. I was discharged from a mental health ward 3 weeks ago after an unsuccessful suicide attempt. My brother was murdered a year ago and I've been struggling with depression since. I lose my job a few months ago and money has been tight in my household, to the point where I began to see myself as nothing but…

Did you know that army medics are 3x more likely to be diagnosed with PTSD than army infantrymen encountering combat? Likewise being a combat medic/doctor isn’t an illness. There is no discussion of eliminating those jobs to save people from mental health illnesses. Even if those jobs and/or debt were eliminated there is no reason to suggest the persons at potential risk of such illnesses would cured from the risk of…

I'm not advocating the removal of treatment for people in debt, I'm just saying that mental health illnesses are exacerbated by stress and money problems can be a huge source of stress.

You have to treat the entire patient, it's the difference between the nightingale and peplau schools of nursing: the patient is not just their symptoms, they are a complete human who has to be treated to prevent recidivism in to a dangerous mental state.

Without the stresses of financial debt I'm not suicidal, I'm depressed and have anxieties and impulses, but one of those impulses isn't suicidal ideation.

In this instance, the diagnosis is an anxiety disorder, not suicidal ideation, but the addition of a second aspect - the debt - can severely increase the chances of the symptom of suicidal ideation occuring.

Again: people with mental health illnesses should be treated for those illnesses, but we also can't ignore the family practicioner and governments role in ensuring that people in financial hardship have the support that they need.

As they say, a small amount of prevention is worth a lot of cure: I imagine the cost on the government to help with the debt is lower than the cost on the government to deal with the mental health issues exacerbated by the debt.

    There is no discussion of eliminating those jobs to save people from mental health illnesses.
In the UK, ex combat medics receive government funded psychotherapy with specially trained mental health practitioners who deal specifically with people who have worked as medical professionals on deployment. So there are some countries pioneering the treatment of patients with a higher risk profile for mental health illnesses. I was for 5 years a combat medical technician with the royal logistics corps and I've had this treatment first hand.

Edit: again, sorry if I don't make sense in some areas, I'm trying very hard :)

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#320

Post by imtringued »

amelius wrote: post #110
gremlinsinc wrote: post #2

I wonder what would happen to the suicide rate with medicare for all, and creating a max-wage that is (avg of contractors + employees * 150), or something similar, w/ additional 'bonus' multipliers for increasing # of U.S. hired. UBI would also probably help. As a freelancer I've had some really slim months and depression hits hard when money is tight. There's a very direct correlation between income security, insecu…

I think a max wage totally makes sense, because nobody is more than a modest constant times more productive than anyone else, and anything created by a person is always built on existing knowledge and constructs created by society. Also, risk does not really exist anymore these days (with minimum wages, financial constructs around bankruptcy, etc.)

It doesn't make any sense because it would have to be readjusted ahead of time all the time. A minimum wage is allowed to lag behind because nothing stops you from paying more but if people have 20% higher wages after 15 years of inflation why should they have to wait until the government approves a pay raise?
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