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Linus: Don't Use ZFS

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Re: Linus: Don't Use ZFS

#331

Linus is correct in his arguments. As the lead for the linux project, he shouldn't merge things that he feels isn't up to stuff from a license point of view. That's why we have different software. If you asked Theo to merge an encryption algorithm for example into OpenSSH and OpenBSD - he's going to have an opinion about it - and that's his thing. Why would this be controversial at all?

Because people like ZFS and Linux so they want to combine the two.

Re: Linus: Don't Use ZFS

#332
post #219
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus is just wrong as far as maintenance, as a look at the linux-zfs lists would show. From my perspective, it has no real competitor under linux, which is why I use it. I don't consider brtfs mature enough for critical data. (Others can reasonably disagree, I have intentionally high standards for data durability.) Aside from legal issues, he's talking out of his ass.

I don't care about my data, so I use ext4, and like most non-ZFS peasants I lose files every other day.

Bitrot is a real thing and deduplication is actually very useful for many usecases, so your sarcasm is ill-advised. ZFS has legitimate useful features that ext4 does not.

Re: Linus: Don't Use ZFS

#333
post #4

Here's his reasoning: "honestly, there is no way I can merge any of the ZFS efforts until I get an official letter from Oracle that is signed by their main legal counsel or preferably by Larry Ellison himself that says that yes, it's ok to do so and treat the end result as GPL'd. Other people think it can be ok to merge ZFS code into the kernel and that the module interface makes it ok, and that's their decision. But…

> And I'm not at all interested in some "ZFS shim layer" thing either If there is no "approved" method for creating Linux drivers under licenses other than the GPL, that seems like a major problem that Linux should be working to address. Expecting all Linux drivers to be GPL-licensed is unrealistic and just leads to crappy user experiences. nVidia is never going to release full-featured GPL'd drivers, and even corpor…

> Linux is able to run proprietary userspace software. Even most open source zealots agree that this is necessary. Why are all drivers expected to use the GPL?

To answer your excellent question (and ignore the somewhat unfortunate slam on people who seem to differ with your way of thinking), it is an intentional goal of software freedom. The idea of a free software license is to allow people to obtain a license to the software if they agree not to distribute changes to that software in such a way so that downstream users have less options than they would with the original software.

Some people are at odds with the options available with licenses like the GPL. Some think they are too restrictive. Some think they are too permissive. Some think they are just right. With respect to you question, it's neither here nor there if the GPL is hitting a sweet spot or not. What's important is that the original author has decided that it did and has chosen the license. I don't imagine that you intend to argue that a person should not be able to choose the license that is best for them, so I'll just leave it at that.

The root of the question is "What determines a change to the software". Is it if we modify the original code? What if we add code? What if we add a completely new file to the code? What if we add a completely new library and simply link it to the code? What if we interact with a module system at runtime and link to the code that way?

The answers to these questions are not well defined. Some of them have been tested in court, while others have not. There are many opinions on which of these constitutes changing of the original software. These opinions vary wildly, but we won't get a definitive answer until the issues are brought up in court.

Before that time period, as a third party who wishes to interact with the software, you have a few choices. You can simply take your chances and do whatever you want. You might be sued by someone who has standing to sue. You might win the case even if you are sued. It's a risk. In some cases the risk is higher than others (probably roughly ordered in the way I ordered the questions).

Another possibility is that you can follow the intent of the original author. You can ask them, "How do you define changing of the software". You may agree with their ideas or not, but it is a completely valid course of action to choose to follow their intent regardless of your opinion.

Your question is: why are all drivers expected to use the GPL? The answer is because drivers are considered by the author to be an extension of the software and hence to be covered by the same license. You are absolutely free to disagree, but it will not change the original author's opinion. You are also able to decide not to abide by the author's opinion. This may open you up to the risk of being sued. Or it may not.

Now, the question unasked is probably the more interesting question. Why does Linus want the drivers to be considered an extension of the original software? I think the answer is that he sees more advantages in the way people interact in that system than disadvantages. There are certainly disadvantages and things that we currently can't use, but for many people this is not a massive hardship. I think the question you might want to put to him is, what advantages have you realised over the years from maintaining the license boundaries as they are? I don't actually know the answer to this question, but would be very interested to hear Linus's opinion.

Re: Linus: Don't Use ZFS

#334
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bcachefs should be heavily supported, it doesn't get nearly enough for what it supposes to do: https://www.patreon.com/bcachefs

Honestly just use ZFS. We've wasted enough effort over obscure licensing minutia.

It's not just licensing. ZFS has some deep-rooted flaws that can only be solved by block pointer rewrite, something that has an ETA of "maybe eventually".

Re: Linus: Don't Use ZFS

#335
post #138

He's not wrong. ext4 is actually maintained. This matters. ZFS hasn't kept up with SSDs. ZFS partitions are also almost impossible to resize, which is a huge deal in today's world of virtualized hardware. Honestly Linus's attitude is refreshing. It's a sign that Linux hasn't yet become some stiff design-by-committee thing. One guy ranting still calls the shots. I love it. Protect this man at all costs.

> ZFS partitions are also almost impossible to resize I'm not sure you've actually used ZFS very much as any way I can see you could be meaning this, it is actually pretty straightforward and simple to resize partitions with ZFS pools and volumes within ZFS pools. For example, if you mean that you have a root zpool on a device using only half the device, you just have to resize the partition and then turn on `autoexp…

We are talking about something resembling adding an extra disk to raid5. Can be easily done in mdadm raid, and then you just need to resize lvm, or whatever you run over it. Can not be done in zfs, not in raid5/6 mode

Re: Linus: Don't Use ZFS

#336
post #37
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snapshots don't seem to be done yet.

That's exactly why I said it's probably the only one that will get there.

Heh, BTRFS deja vu. Been hearing about the ZFS alternative "not quite there, but catching up" for about as long as high-speed rail. I wonder which will arrive first :)

Re: Linus: Don't Use ZFS

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've wasted enough effort over obscure licensing minutia. Which was precisely Sun/Oracle's goal when they released ZFS under the purposefully GPL incompatible CDDL. Sun was hoping to make OpenSolaris the next Linux whilst ensuring that no code from OpenSolaris could be moved back to linux. I can't think of another plausible reason why they would write a new open source license for their open source operating syste…

There were genuine reasons for the CDDL - it wasn't an anti-gpl thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&feature=youtu.be...

Danese Cooper, one of the people at Sun who helped create the CDDL, responded in the comment section of that very video:

Lovely except it really was decided to explicitly make OpenSolaris incompatible with GPL. That was one of the design points of the CDDL. I was in that room, Bryan and you were not, but I know its fun to re-write history to suit your current politics. I pleaded with Sun to use a BSD family license or the GPL itself and they would consider neither because that would have allowed D-Trace to end up in Linux. You can claim otherwise all you want...this was the truth in 2005.

Re: Linus: Don't Use ZFS

#338
post #138

He's not wrong. ext4 is actually maintained. This matters. ZFS hasn't kept up with SSDs. ZFS partitions are also almost impossible to resize, which is a huge deal in today's world of virtualized hardware. Honestly Linus's attitude is refreshing. It's a sign that Linux hasn't yet become some stiff design-by-committee thing. One guy ranting still calls the shots. I love it. Protect this man at all costs.

zfsonlinux added support for TRIM last year. Are you referring to something else?

"last year" means it's in very few distributions at this time. Encryption is another feature that is technically supported, but just been added. When I built my NAS last year, I had to use dm-crypt because zfs didn't have it. Some features indeed lag pretty badly in zfs

Re: Linus: Don't Use ZFS

#339

Do you know that FreeBSD is actually a usable modern OS these days? ;) I run a FreeBSD desktop with Nvidia drivers without any issues. OpenJDK works great, among other things. And it supports ZFS natively, and root on ZFS is the default installation option.

Unfortunately some popular software (like Docker) doesn't work (afaik?) on FreeBSD which might hold a lot of people back.

Re: Linus: Don't Use ZFS

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm baffled by such arguments. > It doesn't seem to be well-maintained. The last commit is from 3 hours ago: https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/commits/master . They have dozens of commits per month. The last minor release, 0.8, brought significant improvements (my favorite: FS-level encryption). Or maybe this is referred to the 5.0 kernel (initial) incompatibility? That wasn't the ZFS dev team's fault. > Performance…

> There are no (stable) alternatives. BTRFS certainly not, as it's "under heavy development"¹ (since... forever). Unless you are living in 2012 on a RHEL/CENTOS 6/7 machine, btrfs has been stable for way too long. I have been using btrfs as the sole filesystem on my laptop in standard mode, on my desktop as RAID0 and my NAS as RAID1 for more that two years. I have experienced absolutely zero data loss. Infact, btrfs…

I believe he's referring to the raid 5/6 issues
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