For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests • Hacker News Board

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#131

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #118

ceejayoz wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a reason Germany's 42% tax bracket starts at... €55,961 Oooh, is the reason "because a lot of services are publicly delivered instead of privately", because I'll bet it is. I pay $30k/year for private healthcare here in the US; a $2200/month premium and an annual out-of-pocket of $4k. I'd happily accept a 10% tax hike to make that go away, and that doesn't even account for my kids' eventual college costs...

That's my point. You can totally have those things, just most middle class people will have to pay in, it cannot be built via taxing only some nebulous $100 million+ class.

It's a dishonest framing, though. The middle class already pays in, at an exorbitant rate that's twice the rest of the developed world.

Changing how we pay is different from paying more.

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#132

Post by wcarron » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #123

wcarron wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "do the minimum and be rewarded?" In my experience, the lower you are paid, the harder you are worked. Cooks, janitors, sanitation workers, mail(wo)men and amazon delivery workers, waiters, teachers, mechanics, construction workers, etc. all work longer hours in more emotionally and/or physically taxing jobs, with worse pay and work environments than any dentist, accountant, lawyer, CEO, sales person, or software e…

> Wages are inversely correlated with how hard you actually have to work, perversely You are right. Why are cooks + janitors paid so little? Because that's their worth to the economy. A ton of people are willing to do that job because it is an "easy skill" with a low barrier of entry. How do we get unskilled labor on STEM paths? I totally understand unequal opportunity not allowing everybody the same options, but at…

This is a completely separate discussion. I originally refuted your (completely asinine) quip about people who "do the minimum and be rewarded".

The rest of your comment is social-darwinistic horseshit based on nothing but prejudice and ignorance. Good day.

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#133

Post by rckoepke » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #118

ceejayoz wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a reason Germany's 42% tax bracket starts at... €55,961 Oooh, is the reason "because a lot of services are publicly delivered instead of privately", because I'll bet it is. I pay $30k/year for private healthcare here in the US; a $2200/month premium and an annual out-of-pocket of $4k. I'd happily accept a 10% tax hike to make that go away, and that doesn't even account for my kids' eventual college costs...

That's my point. You can totally have those things, just most middle class people will have to pay in, it cannot be built via taxing only some nebulous $100 million+ class.

Employers can also stop paying $6,000/year[0] for middle-class health insurance and add that to middle-class paychecks, and then the government can take it in the form of taxes, to provide the health insurance.

The difference is that the cost savings should make this enough enough to cover EVERYONE, not just the upper-heeled middle class.

It's possible that quite a bit of the middle class may not notice a large difference in take-home pay even with an additional 10 percentage points of federal income tax.

0: https://www.peoplekeep.com/blog/what-percent-of-health-insur...

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#134

Post by tunesmith » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

0000011111 wrote: post #47

I see income inequality as a key issue here. I recently read the "Triumph of injustice" and came away with a changed view in our tax system. After reading the book, I now believe that any household with a net worth over $100 million should be subject to both an income and capital gains tax of 99%. In short folks with income come and or net worth at levels that surpass their ability to buy a life of finical security f…

That's interesting because... right now we have a system that examines income and taxes income.

The "wealth tax" is a system that examines wealth and taxes wealth (not income). It's theorized that it's unconstitutional, and even if it isn't, the conservative US court might cause it problems anyway.

But if instead you examine wealth and tax income, maybe that gets around the issue. Higher income tax brackets for those with more wealth?

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#135

Post by henryfjordan » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

0xffff2 wrote: post #127

henryfjordan wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were starving and I offered you a job washing dishes for $2/hour, would you take it to be able to afford some rice+beans tonight or would you rather not eat tonight? You're worth more than $2/hour. We need minimum wage laws to protect people from being crunched by capitalists exploiting labor market inefficiencies.

> You're worth more than $2/hour. Says who?

In this scenario let's presume the laborer has valuable welding skills but the only factory in town closed. They need to move somewhere else to use their skills but that takes time. In the meantime they need to eat and so they take a job washing dishes.

Inefficiencies in the labor market happen all the time. A minimum wage is one way to protect desperate people from being unfairly exploited.

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#136

Post by lsiebert » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

ComputerGuru wrote: post #74

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not devalue it if they're sharing demand for those products with people who make $50 an hour and a select few who make $1000 an hour - assuming those incomes don't go up proportional to the increase in minimum wage.

No, it definitely does. I’m not talking about the old “everyone’s income will just go up” defense. There is a “time added” cost that is a part of the price of any good or service (which may comprise only a part of the value added measure). Imagine a product that is created from raw materials so abundant as to be in and of themselves worthless. Its cost is purely the cost of the time (and effort, which is actually con…

I think that ignores, in a holistic sense, the effect of increased consumer spending, health benefits/better health outcomes, tax revenue etc.

If people are buying more because of wage increases, what is the macroeconomic effect? If people have better health care and take less sick days, what is the effect? If the government has more revenue to spend on programs to benefit people like public transit, job training, drug treatment, what is the effect?

Also worth it to a look at this paper, that shows that there aren't less jobs when you raise minimum wage.

https://www.sole-jole.org/17722.pdf

Also CEO income (an exec compensation in general) has risen dramatically over the past 20 years while regular wage growth has been anemic. Are CEOs dramatically more productive, and workers barely so? That seems illogical, much more likely that the executives are capturing the value of their workers increased productivity. A company doesn't have to raise costs to consumers, it can always cut executive compensation.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/8/16/17693198/c...

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#137

Post by djohnston » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

money won't make you happy, but being poor will make you miserable, especially in the US

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#138

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #101

lukifer wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UBI would also probably help. As the only candidate currently running on a UBI platform, Andrew Yang has argued that one of its benefits would be a reduction in economic anxiety, with ancillary benefits to health in the form of stress reduction and improved executive function, as well as lower rates of depression, suicide, and drug addiction.

Without other universal floors on things like housing and healthcare, UBI is just going to be eaten up by those costs. An indirect sop to these sectors isn’t going to do much to improve the average person’s quality of life.

[deleted]

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#139

Post by mnm1 » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

anonuser123456 wrote: post #65

falcolas wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... who would never work for 0 themselves, even though their own work arguably provides little tangible value.

Exactly. People won't work for less than their worth. So a minimum wage doesn't accomplish much except set a price floor that excludes low value add workers from the economy.

> People won't work for less than their worth.

That's beyond absurd, showing no understanding at all about human nature whatsoever. I have billions of counterexamples for you. I cannot think of anyone I know who hasn't done this at some time in their life. Working for less than one's worth is, in fact, what the majority of the human race is doing. Working for one's worth or for more than one's worth is what is rare and almost nonexistent.

Re: For suicide prevention, try raising the minimum wage, research suggests

#140

Post by Noos » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #41

cartercole wrote: post #11

The minimum wage should be 0 - sincerely any good economist

That's a common trope, but there have been studies indicating that minimum wage doesn't have a significant effect on unemployment. [0] [1] Assuming that's accurate, then shouldn't we mandate that these corporations pay their workers a livable wage? If they don't pay the workers a livable wage, guess who does? The taxpayers, in the form of food stamps, welfare, and increased prison population. I really don't see why t…

The problem though is that a lot of goods sold are essentially optional and may not be able to withstand the price increase. Like I said upthread, this would act as a fitness check on businesses and weed out a lot of employers.

These would have ripple effects up the chain. Malls and retail real estate are empty as it is, for one; any fewer and we legitimately might see problems.