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A Sick Giant

waitbutwhy.com

121–130 of 138 posts

Re: A Sick Giant

#121
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do. Get rid of First Past the Post voting and replace it with something like Approval voting. As it is, candidates in the middle can't get elected. Two dominant parties is an entirely predictable result of FPTP voting. Approval voting (or ones that tend to elect the Condorcet winner, which also should be the first choice of the median voter) would solve 90% of the problems cited in this article.

I suspect that proportional representation is even more important to establishing a multiparty system that forces cooperation rather than polarization.

But that is a much more significant structural change.

And I'm not convinced "multiparty" is what we want. I think we'd be better off if parties had far less significance. Special interest groups? Sure, they'll exist. People who advocate for, say, bigger vs smaller government, more or less military action abroad, antitrust vs laissez faire, etc. But they don't have to nominate individual candidates...that's really only needed when you have a system that has vote splitting.

Re: A Sick Giant

#122
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you're obviously not the target audience then. Since you seem at a loss as to why this article is so successful -- maybe you should ask yourself what you're missing. It seems to me you haven't mastered the author's talent of addressing deep problems in an uplifting way that draws others in.

What is the point of this, other than to make snide comments and sling insults? In my experience, a person's ability to "address deep problems in an uplifting way that draws others in" is completely independent of their ability to read and think critically. For example, do you have any suggestions on what the OP is missing, or could you explain why the article is "so successful" in your opinion? Since I also didn't g…

It's apparent you didn't understand what I wrote at all.

My point is (and I'll spell it out for you too, since I think it may apply) -- knowing the right thing is usually much much much much less important than being able to get other people to understand the right thing.

This article is good because it does the 2nd. There is no lack of unhappy people decrying problems, the world has no use for that.

The world does have use for people who can inspire differently-minded people to focus on (and find joy in) fixing a common challenge.

Re: A Sick Giant

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most standard taught US history on the events that took place basically from the split of the One Catholic Church, through the dark ages, and up to just before the founding of this country is woefully inaccurate. I don't think anyone who places the East-West Schism before the Early Middle Ages (on top of the still using the term “Dark Ages”) really has any leg to stand on in accusing any other portrayal of history…

Did I place it before the early middle ages? Whoops! Not my intention. The schism took place in 1054 officially, however it was very much in the works before that. Thanks for pointing out my comment read as such. I use the term dark ages purely because that is the term the greatest amount of people will be familiar with, and I am referring to the period roughly between 1330 to enlightenment period.

> I use the term dark ages purely because that is the term the greatest amount of people will be familiar with, and I am referring to the period roughly between 1330 to enlightenment period.

I am pretty sure “Dark Ages” is not a term people are generally familiar with for the period from the Late Middle Ages through the Renaissance, since even when the term was more popular, that's not at all what it referred to.

Re: A Sick Giant

#124
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the point of this, other than to make snide comments and sling insults? In my experience, a person's ability to "address deep problems in an uplifting way that draws others in" is completely independent of their ability to read and think critically. For example, do you have any suggestions on what the OP is missing, or could you explain why the article is "so successful" in your opinion? Since I also didn't g…

It's apparent you didn't understand what I wrote at all. My point is (and I'll spell it out for you too, since I think it may apply) -- knowing the right thing is usually much much much much less important than being able to get other people to understand the right thing. This article is good because it does the 2nd. There is no lack of unhappy people decrying problems, the world has no use for that. The world does h…

> It's apparent you didn't understand what I wrote at all.

It's hard to say. I told you what it seemed like you wrote and explicitly asked what the point was, hoping there was more to it than just an series of insults.

You responded with this seemingly independent comment, which is fine, but very different in content than your initial comment. Because of that, it's not surprising that I would have missed the point of your initial comment if in fact both of these comments are attempting to convey the same information.

> My point is (and I'll spell it out for you too, since I think it may apply) -- knowing the right thing is usually much much much much less important than being able to get other people to understand the right thing.

In my opinion, it depends.

Getting people to understand what you're saying when you're wrong isn't helpful at all.

If you do have something original and helpful to say, it is important to convey that information in a manner that others understand.

If you're saying something everyone in your audience already knows, it doesn't matter if you're personally understood or not, because the position is understood by default.

Unfortunately, I put this article in the last category. I am legitimately questioning whether I learned a single new thing of value from reading that entire article, and questioning whether anyone in the audience of that author wouldn't already know this information.

> This article is good because it does the 2nd.

In case it isn't obvious already, we disagree here. I don't think it gets people to understand much of anything, because I don't see any point to the article (which I read in its entirety for the record). To me, it's a compilation of generally well known issues, personal anecdotes ranging from amusing to distracting, and theories that don't seem to have much backing them up. I ended the article wondering why the author (who I respect) spent so much time and effort compiling commonly known information that has been repeatedly analyzed and presented elsewhere, and when (if ever) there would be a point to this series of articles.

You've stated twice now that this is a great article. I'm asking you why you feel it gets people to "understand the right thing", because it didn't have that effect on me.

> There is no lack of unhappy people decrying problems, the world has no use for that.

I'm not sure if I agree with that, and I'm not sure what use there is for extremely long-winded descriptions of the status quo.

> The world does have use for people who can inspire differently-minded people to focus on (and find joy in) fixing a common challenge.

What is that common challenge here?

Re: A Sick Giant

#125

I've been reading Tim Urban's writing for a while. One of the most valuable things in his writing isn't originality, but delivery. He might not be coming up with original ideas (he regularly references the research he consulted to form his writing) but he _does_ do a great job of breaking down complex ideas into a form that's easily digestible. The first several chapters of this series (worth a read, even if it's the…

I think that breaking down the concepts is also helpful for Tim, as well as anyone who's trying to wrestle with complex ideas, in addition to the audience. Making sure your concepts are well-defined and clear is key to building them into something greater. So many flawed ideas are flawed because they're built off of a shaky foundation. Unfortunately analyzing those foundational ideas critically is difficult. I've fou…

I agree with this! I recently had the opportunity to write an outline / script for a TEDx talk, and I found it clarified my ideas _significantly._

Re: A Sick Giant

#126

This is a long and interesting article that, because it is attempting to preserve the system, ultimately misses the mark: My obsession over the past three years has been trying to figure out how our national immune system works, where it draws its strength from, and how we can get it working again. There is no national immune system because there is no nation. The US has never been a nation. It was a loose amalgamati…

Much to be made about Zizek's observation that there are false characterizations of the problems of a situation emerging from those same situations. Proposals are made to solve the problems that society faces, which are broadly in agreement with the systems that produce the perceived problems, so rather than retarding societies progress toward a certain predicted endpoint, it actually gets society to where it was already going, quicker.

Re: A Sick Giant

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it ironic that you respond to a comment about political polarization increasing with a polarizing extreme of a comment...

There's nothing polarizing or extreme about noticing oligarchy. It is a prominent feature of contemporary life. [I was tempted to respond with something actually "polarizing extreme" and thus actually "ironic", but I've been warned...]

> There's nothing polarizing or extreme about noticing oligarchy.

See, you and snarf21 keep assuming that we live in an oligarchy (perhaps snarf21 more strongly than you). You keep assuming that everyone can see that. Not only can't I see it, I'm pretty sure you're wrong. And I suspect that, if you polled HN, you'd find that about 80% of people believe that we do not actually live in an oligarchy (all numbers made up on the spot with zero statistical evidence). I refuse to allow you to just assume oligarchy as "everyone knows, everyone can see". You don't get to assume it; you have to prove it.

The reason I said snarf21's remark was polarizing is because, in terms of conventional left-right divisions, the claim that we live in an oligarchy is almost exclusively a claim of the far left.

(Disclaimer: When I claim that we do not, in fact, live in an oligarchy, I am not claiming that the rich don't have too much influence - just that they don't have enough power to qualify as an actual oligarchy.)

Re: A Sick Giant

#128
I liked the part about horror movies and the primitive mind. Why bother with logical consistency or exploring philosophical questions when the audience will rate your movie based on how jumpy it made them after watching it?

Re: A Sick Giant

#129

He makes plenty of good points, but completely fails to make mention of how plurality voting (also known as "first past the post") results in two dominant parties, rather than electing people who represent the preference of the median voter. This is known as Duverger's Law, and I would argue it is about 90% responsible for everything he speaks of. Voting systems that don't do this exist. Approval voting is one of the…

There are some interesting voting systems out there, including quadratic voting, that used market based mechanisms. Maybe something more useful would be something like a prediction market where people can pay to express a preference for a particular policy decision. Everyone would receive an amount of credits depending on the amount of property they own (not necessarily land, but some abstract notion of property).

Re: A Sick Giant

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing polarizing or extreme about noticing oligarchy. It is a prominent feature of contemporary life. [I was tempted to respond with something actually "polarizing extreme" and thus actually "ironic", but I've been warned...]

> There's nothing polarizing or extreme about noticing oligarchy. See, you and snarf21 keep assuming that we live in an oligarchy (perhaps snarf21 more strongly than you). You keep assuming that everyone can see that. Not only can't I see it, I'm pretty sure you're wrong. And I suspect that, if you polled HN, you'd find that about 80% of people believe that we do not actually live in an oligarchy (all numbers made up…

Which is it? Do the bastards "have too much influence" or don't they? Not all elections are decided by massive campaign contributions from the wealthy, but lots of them are. We haven't bombed or sanctioned every nation populated by brown people, but we've bombed or sanctioned lots of them. Real wages haven't been stagnant forever, but they have been stagnant since 1973.

If you want to draw a line just this side of "oligarchy" and say we aren't there yet, you can, but you've got to admit that trends are pointing in that direction...

Let's ignore all that. ISTM you've made a basic logical error. The topic ITT is "polarization", which is considered a bad thing. GP suggested a way to reduce polarization, by realizing our true interests. How could it be polarizing to suggest a way to reduce polarization?

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