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A Sick Giant

waitbutwhy.com

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Re: A Sick Giant

#61

Post by Enginerrrd »

RivieraKid wrote: post #58

I haven't read the series but it seems that political polarization is the topic. This is perhaps the biggest mystery I'm aware of in the world today, especially because it's not specific to America, I'm seeing the same trends in my country as well: - Extreme polarization along similar axes (conservative/liberal, urban/rural, age, ...). - Outright hatred of traditional political parties. - Rise of populist and non-tra…

>(can I say more intelligent and ambitious?)

Seriously? As someone in a rural area who is not particularly deficient in intelligence, who regularly keeps up with research and innovations in a variety of industries, who bootstrapped my own consulting business & hired two more employees this year, and who regularly deals with the mess created by a regulatory situation where policy makers and voters in CA forget there are a lot of very rural areas in this state and that a one-size-fits all approach is actually crippling to people outside of the bay area and LA: NO. You cannot say that.

And even being so willing to jokingly suggest it is an enormous part of the rural/urban political divide. I'm frankly pretty incredulous to see you do that in a post noting this very issue. The reality is, and I understand that this seems like a hard pill to swallow for the urban elite, different people in different places have different needs and issues.

That said, prior to your dig on rural people, I agree with everything else you said, and I find the trend deeply troubling.

Re: A Sick Giant

#62

Post by dragonwriter »

ew6082 wrote: post #59
tyri_kai_psomi wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment is not fitting to the article, but I wanted to respond to it anyways because I found it interesting and it's not something talked about here much, for obvious reasons. The problem is going to escape many on the left, including most people here as well, as many people here are mostly agnostic/atheistic/anti-faith and believe having faith is somehow anti-intellectual. The reality of the situation is the US…

It doesn't have to be Christianity, but a nation needs moral fiber to prosper, and not just economically. The decline of faith in America with no underlying moral philosophy to replace it has led to normalization of far too much injustice, monopoly, and downright selfishness. Democracy is on shaky ground these days.

> The decline of faith in America with no underlying moral philosophy to replace it has led to normalization of far too much injustice,

I'm a Christian, but I disagree. Far too much injustice has been, both throughout history and recently, normalized because of faith, including variations of Christianity. While there is certainly injustice that comes from other avenues (including certain highly unjust atheistic belief systems), there is simply no substance to the claim that declining religious faith is driving some general increase in injistice, or decrease in strength of moral principles. It certainly involves a shift in moral principles (for instance, away from the dominance of the view that the outward forms of the forms of Protestant Christianity historically dominant in the US are obligatory or at least morally preferred), but that's often (including the cited example) a shift away from principles that have justified gross injustice.

I'd also disagree that the decline in faith in America hasn't involved a replacement by alternative moral philosophy; sure, not one single alternative, but while that might frustrate forging a singular tribal identity, it doesn't indicate a lack of principles in the populace.

Re: A Sick Giant

#63

Post by nyolfen »

RivieraKid wrote: post #58

I haven't read the series but it seems that political polarization is the topic. This is perhaps the biggest mystery I'm aware of in the world today, especially because it's not specific to America, I'm seeing the same trends in my country as well: - Extreme polarization along similar axes (conservative/liberal, urban/rural, age, ...). - Outright hatred of traditional political parties. - Rise of populist and non-tra…

here are a couple of interlocking potential causes: diminishing job security and social mobility for nearly half a century creating a general sense that ordinary peoples lives by and large are not getting better; political cultures isolating themselves in increasingly frantic and hyperbolic media bubbles, and escalating feedback loops of political signaling inside those groups; general distrust of social elites for failure to maintain or fix the system; elite overproduction incentivizing people who under different circumstances may have worked their way up traditional institutions to defect to alternatives and attack the old ones; proliferation of technologies of social influence and control. we're in for an interesting century for sure.

Re: A Sick Giant

#64

Post by RivieraKid »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #61
RivieraKid wrote: post #58

I haven't read the series but it seems that political polarization is the topic. This is perhaps the biggest mystery I'm aware of in the world today, especially because it's not specific to America, I'm seeing the same trends in my country as well: - Extreme polarization along similar axes (conservative/liberal, urban/rural, age, ...). - Outright hatred of traditional political parties. - Rise of populist and non-tra…

>(can I say more intelligent and ambitious?) Seriously? As someone in a rural area who is not particularly deficient in intelligence, who regularly keeps up with research and innovations in a variety of industries, who bootstrapped my own consulting business & hired two more employees this year, and who regularly deals with the mess created by a regulatory situation where policy makers and voters in CA forget there a…

I apologize, I edited it out.

Re: A Sick Giant

#65

Post by solveit »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #61
RivieraKid wrote: post #58

I haven't read the series but it seems that political polarization is the topic. This is perhaps the biggest mystery I'm aware of in the world today, especially because it's not specific to America, I'm seeing the same trends in my country as well: - Extreme polarization along similar axes (conservative/liberal, urban/rural, age, ...). - Outright hatred of traditional political parties. - Rise of populist and non-tra…

>(can I say more intelligent and ambitious?) Seriously? As someone in a rural area who is not particularly deficient in intelligence, who regularly keeps up with research and innovations in a variety of industries, who bootstrapped my own consulting business & hired two more employees this year, and who regularly deals with the mess created by a regulatory situation where policy makers and voters in CA forget there a…

> Seriously? As someone in a rural area who is [...] NO. You cannot say that.

Sure but you're just one person out of millions. We're trying to compare populations. And obviously the prior poster didn't mean that every rural person who moves to a city is more intelligent/ambitious than every person who stays, but you knew that already (note how you didn't object to more liberal, presumably because it doesn't carry a value judgment with it and also because it's clearly true in an important sense).

I haven't seen any studies, but it is very plausible to me that people who up and leave tend to be more intelligent and ambitious, if only because it's a costly thing to do and income/wealth correlates with everything good.

Re: A Sick Giant

#66

Post by darkerside »

Nition wrote: post #37
Ygg2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The rule is absolutely stupid, and pointless. It's about as meaningful to airplane security as TSA. In other words, none at all. I mean if rules say you need to report your fellow Uighurs, you should follow them because other will?

Because it's likely to cause discomfort and negative attention from the other passengers who will worry it could jeopardize their flight, and not using your phone for a little while isn't a big deal. It's not so much about following a rule or not, as just being socially responsible.

Pantomiming the lie isn't being socially responsible

Re: A Sick Giant

#67

Post by flukus »

RivieraKid wrote: post #58

I haven't read the series but it seems that political polarization is the topic. This is perhaps the biggest mystery I'm aware of in the world today, especially because it's not specific to America, I'm seeing the same trends in my country as well: - Extreme polarization along similar axes (conservative/liberal, urban/rural, age, ...). - Outright hatred of traditional political parties. - Rise of populist and non-tra…

I'd add to your list the increasing disconnect between wealth and quality of life. Economists and politicians will tell us how much richer we've become, how much our GDP has grown, etc, but so much of that "wealth" is that we have ipads and flat screen TV's. The things we actually need for a better life like housing security, social opportunities and stability are getting more and more out of reach. I think this is the main driver of populist politicians, they've tapped into this growing discontent quite literally because being content is getting harder.

Re: A Sick Giant

#69

Post by wayoutthere »

capableweb wrote: post #14
bambataa wrote: post #12

I have enjoyed WaitButWhy articles in the past but with this new series the author seems to have spent a huge amount of time, energy and words coming up with ideas that aren't that new. I keep skimming through them waiting to find the big point.

I think to gain anything from long form articles, you need to read and consider what's being written, rather than skimming, looking for the holy grail.

What the author says here is better said by a dozen others. I just had an overwhelming feeling of no shit sherlock when reading this -- yes, it's obvious our media is polarized, for obvious reasons.

I'm going to guess his next chapter is about how money ruined the media and politics, which is "why you shouldn't write about these things" -- because the people with the loudest voice have the most to gain from the polarization of the media. Again, this is pretty obvious. The loudest voice becomes the only one you hear in an echo chamber.

It was insightful the first time I read it from Socrates and Aristotle. But at this point it should be common knowledge for anyone interested in philosophy (literally: the study of knowledge).

Re: A Sick Giant

#70

Post by wayoutthere »

neogodless wrote: post #24
bambataa wrote: post #12

I have enjoyed WaitButWhy articles in the past but with this new series the author seems to have spent a huge amount of time, energy and words coming up with ideas that aren't that new. I keep skimming through them waiting to find the big point.

I think any one of the ideas in the ten chapters so far are probably largely "accepted" (or sometimes controversial, such as simplifying a person's thought process to Primitive vs Higher-minded.) But I think trying to put the pieces together is harder. People are quick to say "polarization happened because..." or "people hate the opposite political party because..." or "people only read news they agree with because..…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgias_(dialogue)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric_(Aristotle)

None of this is new. At all. The echo chamber is just louder now. Plato and Aristotle were obsessed with this shit, and they are the two most widely-read voices from antiquity. This is literally the value of a "liberal arts education" (small l liberal unrelated to the right / left spectrum). Philosophers have been writing about this stuff in similar terms since writing was invented, and probably talking about it before that.

More modern philosophers have written more approachable versions, but the ideas are as old as we as a species can remember.

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