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Germany is moving beyond nuclear power, but at what cost?

nytimes.com

31–40 of 239 posts

Re: Germany is moving beyond nuclear power, but at what cost?

#31

Nuclear energy, to start with, is ultimately not safe Solar kills more people than nuclear per watt, so that’s the reporter’s personal agenda talking https://www.statista.com/statistics/494425/death-rate-worldw...

How how do you account for the guy who dies from cancer 500 years from now due to nuclear waste materials stored in dodgy facilities?

Re: Germany is moving beyond nuclear power, but at what cost?

#32
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The killings that nuclear may make are difficult to pin down (did that cancer come from nuclear exposure, or a chemical, or just a chance cosmic ray?) and so may be unattributed.

A well-developed statistical model should be able to take that into account. My understanding is that the academic consensus is fairly strongly leaning towards nuclear being the safest energy option, based on robust statistical models. Would be interested in hearing the opinions on this from someone actually in this academic field though...

A model could provide an estimate there, but nuclear deaths are not estimated that way from the posted source. They are only directly attributable deaths. e.g. cherynobyl was attributed from the posted source as 7 deaths while statistical modeling puts it in at least the tens of thousands range. Even the 7 of the link is questionable as reports of firefighter deaths during the accident as 27.

e.g. https://heavy.com/news/2019/05/how-many-people-died-at-chern...

Re: Germany is moving beyond nuclear power, but at what cost?

#33
post #14

Nuclear energy, to start with, is ultimately not safe Solar kills more people than nuclear per watt, so that’s the reporter’s personal agenda talking https://www.statista.com/statistics/494425/death-rate-worldw...

The killings that nuclear may make are difficult to pin down (did that cancer come from nuclear exposure, or a chemical, or just a chance cosmic ray?) and so may be unattributed.

Sure, but if we count that then let’s attribute all skin cancer to solar.

Re: Germany is moving beyond nuclear power, but at what cost?

#34

Germans do not have to decide between Nuclear Energy or Climate Catastrophe. They have to decide between the potential risks of radioactive pollution or the impairment of landscape by wind turbines and power lines. There is not much tragedy in this decision.

In France and Belgium, which are West of Germany, there are plenty of nuclear reactors. This is in a region with prevailing west winds.

If Germany would want to minimize the risk of radioactive pollution, it would have to build plenty nuclear reactors at its eastern border and sell that energy to France below market value.

Then, as long as France doesn't cut Germany off, the French nuclear reactors would be shut down and the risk of nuclear pollution for Germany would be reduced.

Re: Germany is moving beyond nuclear power, but at what cost?

#35

Nuclear energy, to start with, is ultimately not safe Solar kills more people than nuclear per watt, so that’s the reporter’s personal agenda talking https://www.statista.com/statistics/494425/death-rate-worldw...

How how do you account for the guy who dies from cancer 500 years from now due to nuclear waste materials stored in dodgy facilities?

if climate change continues at today's pace, there won't be humans in 500 years from now.

Re: Germany is moving beyond nuclear power, but at what cost?

#36
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The killings that nuclear may make are difficult to pin down (did that cancer come from nuclear exposure, or a chemical, or just a chance cosmic ray?) and so may be unattributed.

Sure, but if we count that then let’s attribute all skin cancer to solar.

Skin cancer can also come from exposure to material on the skin or ingested... chemical or nuclear, it could come from strong enough exposure to EM radiation. at the point you have cancer, it's very difficult to say exactly what the cause was.

Re: Germany is moving beyond nuclear power, but at what cost?

#37
I absolutely hate this narrative of the demise of nuclear energy largely being politically motivated because nuclear energy is not just falling in Germany, it's diminishing virtually across the entire world (with very few exceptions).

It's true that Germany has a historical anti-nuclear and green sentiment but other countries are no different. Nuclear energy may be clean, but it is also exceedingly expensive and unable to compete in price in most countries including the US.[1] Even China, the large last country to buckle the trend as of late seems to have reduced the role of its nuclear energy policy and seems to be missing targets [2].

[1] https://e360.yale.edu/features/industry-meltdown-is-era-of-n... [2] https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612564/chinas-losing-its-...

Re: Germany is moving beyond nuclear power, but at what cost?

#38
post #11

Let's assume for a moment there would be no opposition to nuclear in Germany. How does nuclear energy help with climate change? Looking back to 2000, nuclear energy at peak was responsible for 32.1% of electricity production[1]. We'd need to at least double that. That would take a huge amount of money. More importantly it would take time. We can barely manage to build a single fucking airport in 1-2 decades. Building…

The German industry can build an airport and could build reactors, just look at Athens airport [1]. BER is failing for other reasons.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_International_Airport#D...

Re: Germany is moving beyond nuclear power, but at what cost?

#39

I absolutely hate this narrative of the demise of nuclear energy largely being politically motivated because nuclear energy is not just falling in Germany, it's diminishing virtually across the entire world (with very few exceptions). It's true that Germany has a historical anti-nuclear and green sentiment but other countries are no different. Nuclear energy may be clean, but it is also exceedingly expensive and unab…

Expensive compared to what? Are you comparing the full costs of coal plants to nuclear, or are you just externalizing the costs as most comparisons do? The costs of coal need to include all the effects of coal emissions into the atmosphere, which may very well be incalculable.

Solar and wind of course are great, but has anyone figured out how to make those supply 100% of a nation's power needs, 24/7? I don't believe so: we don't have the storage technology yet.

Re: Germany is moving beyond nuclear power, but at what cost?

#40

The article misses to mention that Germany is actually quite active in fusion reactor research (eg. Wendelstein 7x the world's largest stellerator was just opened a few years ago). Its yet to be seen if fusion power will ever reach production level. But stating that Germany cut itself off of nuclear energy research is not exactly right.

That's pretty irrelevant. Fission and fusion are two totally separate processes. Fission is a process used in nuclear power plants to provide many gigawatts of power to electric grids. Fusion is something that's only used for science experiments and cannot generate useful power. Maybe it can in the future, and maybe in the future we'll also have holodecks and warp drive, but that isn't useful today.
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