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DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

bbc.com

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Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#21

Post by bipson »

beagle3 wrote: post #14
lolc wrote: post #2

And here I am with a sister who thinks that vaccination for a newborn should be "weighed against the risk". The reason we don't know measles as a deadly disease anymore is because vaccination works so well!

It IS a prisoner’s dilemma of sort. If everyone around you is vaccinated, you mostly enjoy herd immunity, so the benefit is much smaller. The risks are small, and most definitely worth it from society’s point of view, and likely from a personal point of view - They are, however, harder to assess from a personal point of view. I am somewhat familiar with a case where a serious underlying autoimmune condition was appar…

The point here is the limitation "apparently".

Huge part of the needless discussion about the risks of vaccines happening in well educated parts of the population are misattributed effects of vaccines.

Everyone I know apparently knows someone that has a child that has a serious condition because of a vaccination. Yeah, right, if it was so clear cut and widespread, these vaccines would be pulled from the market yesterday.

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#22

Post by ReptileMan »

Sarki wrote: post #8
lolc wrote: post #2

And here I am with a sister who thinks that vaccination for a newborn should be "weighed against the risk". The reason we don't know measles as a deadly disease anymore is because vaccination works so well!

This mostly comes down to the irrationality regarding risks when you're having kids. Out of my own experience, and given the worst cases scenarios you hear from it's difficult not to fear for your loved ones (and I mean you literally feel it in your loins) especially when YOUR decision can have even the slightest chance of ruining their lives. -- Edit: Please don't get me wrong, I have kids, and their vaccines are up…

> And virtually it's as narrow minded as refusing to take antibiotics

Antibiotics are over prescribed. And due to that we enjoy Multidrug-resistant bacteria. Antibiotics are the opposite of vaccines. By taking them needlessly you fuck up everyone else.

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#23

Post by DanBC »

kresten wrote: post #20

[flagged]

> I have pretty much zero sympathy for adult antivaxxers who get infected.

Why? Some of them will have been lied to by people who have considerable amounts of money to spend on disinformation, and we (who support vaccination) have done a poor job of explaining that vaccination is safe and effective.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13/majority-...

https://khn.org/morning-breakout/important-donor-to-anti-vax...

We know that many people struggle to understand health information. In England we see:

https://beta.nhs.uk/service-manual/content/health-literacy

> More than 4 in 10 adults struggle with health content for the public and more than 6 in 10 adults struggle with health content that includes numbers and statistics.

Attacking people with anti-vaccination views does not work to change their minds.

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#25

Post by SamPatt »

bipson wrote: post #21
beagle3 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It IS a prisoner’s dilemma of sort. If everyone around you is vaccinated, you mostly enjoy herd immunity, so the benefit is much smaller. The risks are small, and most definitely worth it from society’s point of view, and likely from a personal point of view - They are, however, harder to assess from a personal point of view. I am somewhat familiar with a case where a serious underlying autoimmune condition was appar…

The point here is the limitation " apparently ". Huge part of the needless discussion about the risks of vaccines happening in well educated parts of the population are misattributed effects of vaccines. Everyone I know apparently knows someone that has a child that has a serious condition because of a vaccination. Yeah, right, if it was so clear cut and widespread, these vaccines would be pulled from the market yest…

>if it was so clear cut and widespread, these vaccines would be pulled from the market yesterday

That argument is empirically false, as there have been multiple medications and vaccinations which did widespread harm.

Granted, nearly all of them occurred 30+ years ago. However I don't think we should ever claim we've advanced to the point where we _know_ that there are _no_ medications or vaccinations that are causing problems we aren't aware of yet, especially given how long it might take for those problems to manifest themselves.

Not an argument against vaccination at all, just an argument for intellectual humility.

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#27

Post by kresten »

baq wrote: post #26
kresten wrote: post #20

[flagged]

why would you have no sympathy for children who can't (as in, both aren't allowed to and aren't intellectually equipped to) make that decision themselves is beyond me.

Ahhh the pedant. Welcome to the discussion.

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#28

Post by DanBC »

lolc wrote: post #2

And here I am with a sister who thinks that vaccination for a newborn should be "weighed against the risk". The reason we don't know measles as a deadly disease anymore is because vaccination works so well!

She's right though, vaccination for anyone should be weighed against the risk.

We spend considerable amounts of money ensuring that vaccinations are safe and effective, and we only recommend vaccination if they are safe and effective and if the very small risks (and all interventions have risks) make sense against the disease being vaccinated against.

In the case of measles there are considerable risks of death or life long harm, so this balancing question is easy.

Maybe we need better ways of telling people like her about how the risks are weighed up, because at the moment she has multi-millionaires (trying to sell her vitamin pills) telling her things she wants to hear and that make sense to her. Clearly we (the people who want her to vaccinate) are failing to communicate.

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#29

Post by kresten »

DanBC wrote: post #23
kresten wrote: post #20

[flagged]

> I have pretty much zero sympathy for adult antivaxxers who get infected. Why? Some of them will have been lied to by people who have considerable amounts of money to spend on disinformation, and we (who support vaccination) have done a poor job of explaining that vaccination is safe and effective. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13/majority-... https://khn.org/morning-breakout/important-donor-to-ant…

Adults are responsible.

I’m not trying to change their minds.

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#30

Post by Cthulhu_ »

I'll sound like a conspiracy theorist here but hear me out.

The anti-vaxx movement is a successful underground propaganda attack by the Russians to weaken the population. They are also behind the election of unfit leaders and anti-European (read: anti-unity) sentiments, or more broadly speaking, making people argue about internal affairs so they're no longer a strong front against the outside world.

Where's the state funded counter propaganda? There used to be propaganda posters that portrayed not vaccinating as un-American and / or working with the enemy.

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