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Comma Two Devkit

comma.ai

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Re: Comma Two Devkit

#181

Post by taneq »

Benjammer wrote: post #153
eloff wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand yes, on the other the company wouldn't exist. Regulators are important, but they also serve incumbent interests as they raise the barrier to entry for newcomers. It's a way to pull the ladder up behind you once you've achieved success. I don't know how we can better balance those seemingly conflicting aspects.

I can never really understand this argument. Why can't we carefully craft regulations to scale in their burden with the company's ability to bear said burden in some way? Scale with revenue or head count numbers? Similar to how income at the lowest bracket isn't taxed, to lessen the burden on people much less able to pay.

Because (a) then you'd end up with things like pacemakers designed by sole operators because their regulatory burden would be that much lower than what a biomedical engineering firm would face, and (b) any such system would be trivial to game anyway.

Re: Comma Two Devkit

#183

Post by DesolationJones »

bathtub365 wrote: post #174
chris11 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it’s still operating within the bounds of the factory electronic steering That's Comma AI's approach. Their hardware spoofs the stock computer so it can send commands to the car's active safety systems. So there are some stock limitations, like the steering torque, that openpilot doesn't bypass.

This doesn't address the fundamental issue: a car is being controlled by an untested and unregulated system on public roads.

I'm not sure what testing a regulator can do today that's more rigorous than the 10.5 million miles already driven by Open Pilot equipped cars.

Re: Comma Two Devkit

#184

Post by dblotsky »

ehaisnfn wrote: post #91
awal2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When somebody installs Linux on their computer without knowing what they are doing they might make break their computer. When somebody tries to install after-market self-driving equipment in their car without knowing what they are doing they could easily kill people.

That's really a bullshit comparison. It either works, or it does not. That's quite literally the same as oem systems. It either works, or throws an error and does not.

You’re missing the huge “works incorrectly” space of outputs.

Re: Comma Two Devkit

#185

Post by missosoup »

slg wrote: post #178
eloff wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand yes, on the other the company wouldn't exist. Regulators are important, but they also serve incumbent interests as they raise the barrier to entry for newcomers. It's a way to pull the ladder up behind you once you've achieved success. I don't know how we can better balance those seemingly conflicting aspects.

> Regulators are important, but they also serve incumbent interests as they raise the barrier to entry for newcomers. Call me crazy, but when it comes to products that could so easily cause death, a barrier to entry is a good thing.

Aaaaand that's why Americans need to pay 500 bucks for an insulin injector pen while Indians pay 10 bucks for the same device.

The problem with regulatory capture and arguing it's a good thing, is that there's a downside/cost to the barrier it creates. And often that downside outweighs the upside.

To be clear, no one is arguing regulation shouldn't exist. Just that the nature of regulation is to be captured by incumbents and serve a purpose orthogonal to protecting the people.

Re: Comma Two Devkit

#186

Post by slg »

missosoup wrote: post #180
slg wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comma is bragging about 6 million miles drive. Tesla's Autopilot has over 2 billion miles driven. This has two cameras (EDIT: and apparently 1 radar that already exists in the vehicle). Tesla's has 12 cameras, 12 sonars, and 1 radar. This is backed by a company that apparently has received $8 million in funding. Autopilot is backed by a company with a market cap of $84 billion. You are welcome to your opinion of Tesl…

You're listing specs which are a proxy for how much money the incumbent has, and saying that the regulatory barrier should be set at those specs for some reason. None of those specs give any indication to the relative safety of the two systems though. And this is exactly what incumbents want. They want a small player to have to match their massive cash holdings to enter their market, even if the small player has a be…

I listed miles driven. That is a direct indicator of safety.

I also listed the number and type of inputs each system has. This might correlate with money, but it clearly also correlates with safety. One simple example, it is impossible for the Comma system to have 360 degree visual coverage of what is around you with just two cameras in the locations they are in.

Re: Comma Two Devkit

#187

Post by [deleted] »

slg wrote: post #186
missosoup wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're listing specs which are a proxy for how much money the incumbent has, and saying that the regulatory barrier should be set at those specs for some reason. None of those specs give any indication to the relative safety of the two systems though. And this is exactly what incumbents want. They want a small player to have to match their massive cash holdings to enter their market, even if the small player has a be…

I listed miles driven. That is a direct indicator of safety. I also listed the number and type of inputs each system has. This might correlate with money, but it clearly also correlates with safety. One simple example, it is impossible for the Comma system to have 360 degree visual coverage of what is around you with just two cameras in the locations they are in.

[deleted]

Re: Comma Two Devkit

#188

Post by slg »

missosoup wrote: post #185
slg wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regulators are important, but they also serve incumbent interests as they raise the barrier to entry for newcomers. Call me crazy, but when it comes to products that could so easily cause death, a barrier to entry is a good thing.

Aaaaand that's why Americans need to pay 500 bucks for an insulin injector pen while Indians pay 10 bucks for the same device. The problem with regulatory capture and arguing it's a good thing, is that there's a downside/cost to the barrier it creates. And often that downside outweighs the upside. To be clear, no one is arguing regulation shouldn't exist. Just that the nature of regulation is to be captured by incumb…

I didn't say regulatory capture is a good thing. I said that barriers to entry can be good in certain instances. In the instance of medical devices, the problem in the US has nothing to do with barriers to entry. If you can drive across the border to Canada and buy an identical product for a fraction of the price it would cost in the US, that isn't because the barrier to entry is too high in the US. The product already exists and is being produced, it just costs more due to a broken healthcare industry.

Re: Comma Two Devkit

#189

Post by bathtub365 »

DesolationJones wrote: post #183
bathtub365 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't address the fundamental issue: a car is being controlled by an untested and unregulated system on public roads.

I'm not sure what testing a regulator can do today that's more rigorous than the 10.5 million miles already driven by Open Pilot equipped cars.

It isn't being done by anyone the company is liable for

Re: Comma Two Devkit

#190

Post by missosoup »

cyc116 wrote: post #175
missosoup wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> end-users have to piece together from Wiki pages and packages they download themselves Which makes it a ton safer than '''autopilot''' because by the time those users are done installing it they have a pretty clear understanding of its capabilities and limitations. vs. the endless videos of morons driving tesla in '''autopilot''' mode with hands off the wheel because it's an incomprehensible black box of magical se…

It doesn't take a 5 year ML PHD and millions of simulation miles to download and install packages.

And yet all of those resources have amounted to what all regulators agree is a SAE level 2 system, only qualified for hands-on lane-keeping assist, exactly like you'll find on a modern Mazda or any other number of cars without any of that hardware or ML PHDs.

Sort of proving the point that the resource pool of the incumbent doesn't necessarily translate to the value of the product.

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