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The End of the Beginning

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Re: The End of the Beginning

#61

I've been thinking along the same line, albeit on a more personal take as a software engineer. Basically, starting around 15 years ago, there's the proliferation of bootcamps teaching fullstack development, because software startups were the new hot thing, and they desperately need generalist engineers that were capable of spinning up web app quickly. Rails was the hot thing those days because of this as well. Hence…

My understanding is that startups never paid well. Sure, if you got lucky and were employee #7 at Facebook, it paid off great! But even during that time frame, working at startups instead of MS or Google was not a good proposition. And even during DotCom and the rise of Microsoft, it paid a lot better to work at IBM than these classes of startups.

True. I prefer working for startups and tiny companies -- not because of the income potential (as you point out, there are better ways of chasing that), but because the really interesting stuff is almost always done by startups and tiny companies.

Small companies make it possible, large companies make it economical.

Re: The End of the Beginning

#62

I've been thinking along the same line, albeit on a more personal take as a software engineer. Basically, starting around 15 years ago, there's the proliferation of bootcamps teaching fullstack development, because software startups were the new hot thing, and they desperately need generalist engineers that were capable of spinning up web app quickly. Rails was the hot thing those days because of this as well. Hence…

Right but this is because startups are largely a financial vehicle to transfer value created by employees to investors and founders. If startups actually gave employees a real stake in their business, the equity math would make much more sense. Its a cultural issue, but also, the set of people working at startups for worthless equity is mostly disjoint with the set that can get hired at Google/FB. Its almost a different career.

The value of full stack engineering is also plummeting because the tooling i.e. React has gotten so good that the barrier to entry is very low.

Re: The End of the Beginning

#63

I'm not exactly sure where I fall on this. Ben is a really smart guy (way smarter than me), but I feel like this could be a classic case of hindsight. Now, looking back, it makes sense that the next logical step after PCs was the Internet. But from each era looking forward, it's not as easy to see the next "horizon". So, if each next "horizon" is hard to see, and the paradigm it subsequently unlocks is also difficult…

> but I feel like this could be a classic case of hindsight.

Well it's 2020 afterall.

> Now, looking back, it makes sense that the next logical step after PCs was the Internet.

But the internet existed before PCs.

> and I agree that it seems it is getting harder and harder to disrupt the Big Four.

I agree, but then again, people thought AOL was hard to disrupt so you never know. A company can look invincible one day and irrelevant a few years later.

> I think there are still plenty of industries ripe for that disruption.

Yes, but the low hanging fruits have already been taken. I suspect the next round of disruptions would be more difficult and less profitable.

Re: The End of the Beginning

#64
As @oflannabhra said, I think this is a case of hindsight thinking, with little predictive impact. Privacy issues can very quickly change everything. Security issues (story on NPR today about medical devices pretty much all vulnerable and ripe for random killing of people) could as well. Climate change is going to be a large driver for technology in the near future. The tech situation is very, very dynamic right now and it is way too early to say we are going to settle down with the current tech giants.

Also, giants are giants. In manufacturing, there are absolutely vast advantages to economy of scale. In tech, except for network effects, it's very easy for a very broad array of upstart companies to dominate their respective arenas at the 100bn level.

> today’s cloud and mobile companies — Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, and Google — may very well be the GM, Ford, and Chrysler of the 21st century.

Well, except google is not a cloud or mobile company. They are an advertising company.

Re: The End of the Beginning

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, it seems like the rate of disruption in this space has been steadily slowing down.

Even the most pointed to example and seemingly saturated space, social media, had three major players emerge last decade: Instagram, Snapchat and TikTok.

Viber 2010, Pinterest 2010, Ask.fm 2010, Twitch 2011, WeChat 2011, Medium.com 2012, Slack 2013, Telegram 2013, Musical.ly 2014, Discord 2015, are all in related/overlapping space and have tens of millions of users.

Re: The End of the Beginning

#66
For the OP, let me think ....

There is

> IBM’s mainframe monopoly was suddenly challenged by minicomputers from companies like DEC, Data General, Wang Laboratories, Apollo Computer, and Prime Computers.

So, to shed some more light on this statement, especially about "mainframe monopoly", let me recount some of my history with IBM mainframes:

(1) Uh, to help work myself and my wife through grad school, I had a part time job in applied math and computing: Our IBM Mainframe TSO (time-sharing option) bill was about $80,000 a year, so we got a Prime, and soon with my other work I was the system administrator. Soon I graduated and was a new B-school prof where the school wanted more in computing. So, I led an effort to get a Prime -- we did. IBM and their super-salesman Buck Rodgers tried hard but lost.

The Prime was easy to run, very useful, and popular but would not have replaced IBM mainframe work running CICS, IMS, DB2, etc. Of course, in a B-school, we wanted to run word processing, D. Knuth's TeX math word whacking, SPSS statistics, some advanced spreadsheet software (with linear programming optimization), etc. and not CICS, IMS, DB2.

(2) Later I was at IBM's Watson lab in an AI group. For our general purpose use, our lab had six IBM mainframes, IIRC U, V, W, X, Y, Z. As I recall they had one processor core each with a processor clock likely no faster that 153 MHz.

Okay, in comparison, the processor in my first server in my startup is an AMD FX-8350 with 8 cores and a standard clock speed of 4.0 GHz.

So, let's take a ratio:

(8 * 4.0 * 109)/(6 * 153 * 106) = 34.9

so that, first cut, just on processor clock ticks, the one AMD processor is 35 times faster than all the general purpose mainframes at IBM's Watson lab when I was there.

But, still, on IBM's "mainframe monopoly", if what you want is really an IBM mainframe, e.g., to run old software, then about the only place to get one is from IBM. So, IBM still has their "mainframe monopoly".

Or to be extreme, an Apple iPhone, no matter how fast it is, does not really threaten the IBM "mainframe monopoly".

Continuing:

> ... like DEC, Data General, Wang Laboratories, Apollo Computer, and Prime Computers. And then, scarcely a decade later, minicomputers were disrupted by personal computers from companies like MITS, Apple, Commodore, and Tandy.

Not really: The DEC, DG, ..., Prime computers were super-mini computers and were not "disrupted" by the PCs of "MITS, Apple, Commodore, and Tandy."

The super-mini computers did lose out but later and to Intel 386, etc. chips with Windows NT or Linux.

> ... Microsoft the most powerful company in the industry for two decades.

Hmm. So now Microsoft is not so "powerful"? Let's see: Google makes it easy to get data on market capitalization:

Apple: $1,308.15 B

Microsoft: $1,202.15 B

Alphabet: $960.96 B

Amazon: $945.42 B

Facebook: $607.59 B

Exxon-Mobil: $297.40 B

Intel: $256.35 B

Cisco: $201.47 B

Oracle: $173.73

IBM: $118.84 B

GM: $50.22 B

Microsoft is still a very powerful company.

Uh, I'm no expert on Apple, but it appears that the Apple products need a lot of access to servers, and so far they tend to run on processors from Intel and AMD with operating system software from Microsoft or Linux -- that is, Apple is just on the client and not the server side.

It appears, then, that in computing Microsoft is the second most powerful company and is the most powerful on the server side.

Sure, maybe some low power ARM chips with 3 nm line widths and Linux software will dominate the server side, but that is in the future?

And personally, I can't do my work with a handheld device, need a desktop, and am using AMD and Microsoft and nothing from Apple. A Macbook might suffice for my work but seems to cost maybe $10,000 to have the power I plugged together in a mid-tower case for less than $2000.

Broadly it appears that the OP is too eager to conclude that the older companies are being disrupted, are shrinking and are fading, are being replaced, etc.

Maybe the main point is just that in the US hamburgers were really popular and then along came pizza. So, pizza is popular, but so are hamburgers!

I also go along with the point of zozbot234 at

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21986141

> Software is still eating the world, and there will be plenty to eat for a long time.

Re: The End of the Beginning

#67
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is Ray Kurzweil's hypothesis particularly important to contrast other hypotheses against? What sets it apart in relevance and/or authority?

Because it's evidence is pretty straightforward: you can take wikipedia's list of important inventions and plot their frequency on a chart. Of course, there are debates around which inventions count as significant. And there is recency bias. Never underestimate the power in something easy to communicate.

> "Never underestimate the power in something easy to communicate."

Yes, I suppose that's the biggest thing with these "futurologists": their predictions are both tantalizing and easy to digest. I reserve the right to remain skeptical about any of these Silicon Valley religions though.

Re: The End of the Beginning

#68

I'm not exactly sure where I fall on this. Ben is a really smart guy (way smarter than me), but I feel like this could be a classic case of hindsight. Now, looking back, it makes sense that the next logical step after PCs was the Internet. But from each era looking forward, it's not as easy to see the next "horizon". So, if each next "horizon" is hard to see, and the paradigm it subsequently unlocks is also difficult…

This captures my sentiment.

It’s hard to see how the incumbents could be beaten — precisely because how effective they are around data, buying potential competitors (Instagram, YouTube) .... but this is precisely because we don’t know what/if the next market shift is.

What happens if AI takes off? What happens if 3D printing magically becomes 100x more efficient and you can print anything you want from home?

We don’t know. It doesn’t seem like the big incumbents could be defeated, but history repeats itself.

Re: The End of the Beginning

#69

I've been thinking along the same line, albeit on a more personal take as a software engineer. Basically, starting around 15 years ago, there's the proliferation of bootcamps teaching fullstack development, because software startups were the new hot thing, and they desperately need generalist engineers that were capable of spinning up web app quickly. Rails was the hot thing those days because of this as well. Hence…

The tragedy of people who want to make money and believe it will be 'life changing', is that no matter how many times they are told it won't be, they think 'ha, you only say that because you got yours'.

What useless shit are you going to buy with 'life changing' money exactly that a software developer's salary won't allow?

Re: The End of the Beginning

#70

I've been thinking along the same line, albeit on a more personal take as a software engineer. Basically, starting around 15 years ago, there's the proliferation of bootcamps teaching fullstack development, because software startups were the new hot thing, and they desperately need generalist engineers that were capable of spinning up web app quickly. Rails was the hot thing those days because of this as well. Hence…

The tragedy of people who want to make money and believe it will be 'life changing', is that no matter how many times they are told it won't be, they think 'ha, you only say that because you got yours'. What useless shit are you going to buy with 'life changing' money exactly that a software developer's salary won't allow?

Peace of mind.
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