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Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

latimes.com

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Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#421

Post by uerobert »

unapologetic wrote: post #277
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also an anecdote doesn't invalidate something that is true for a vast majority of the american workforce. You just love your wide sweeping claims don't you? No it is not true for the vast majority of the american workforce. >You said it right, they are provided. In Europe they are not provided: they are your right and it cannot be taken away by your employer. Can we please not move the goal posts, I thought this was…

> that can be done at the legal level. You do not need unions to exist to do that! Unions allow workers to wield political power collectively as well. Union endorsements are valuable, union money, union member donations. Instead of having billionaires like Bezos or the Koch brothers buying up media and giving millions to candidates to push their agenda, ordinary people can be heard. Why do you think so many old schoo…

> Union endorsements are valuable, union money, union member donations.

This is why a lot of people oppose unions. You could be contributing for causes you actively oppose, and on top of that against your will.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#422

Post by yibg »

Apocryphon wrote: post #403
yibg wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and you can tie the two together more with higher equity component. But the argument here is that Facebook should pay engineers more because they make a lot of money. My point is, then should a company that doesn’t make as much money (which is most) pay their employees less? Or in the cases of companies that don’t make money, not pay their employees at all?

Shouldn't companies with better profit margins seek to increase worker compensation? Otherwise why should those workers want to work there?

I'm not sure, should they?

Seems like workers would want to work at a place if they're fairly compensated (in contrast to increasing with company profits), treated well and enjoy their job. Sure you can reward employees for good company performance, and many do in forms of bonuses, equity growth etc, but 1) it's not required and 2) it's not directly correlated to company profits. I mean, if a company won a "lottery", e.g. a huge sale contract, should all employees get a corresponding boost in income?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#423

Post by Apocryphon »

hinkley wrote: post #420
Apocryphon wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there are endless instances of bad corporate behavior. So we are at an impasse.

Not when the orders of magnitude are different.

Is there a study comparing corruption rates?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#424

Post by yibg »

L_Rahman wrote: post #81
umvi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA has a pretty bad track record when it comes to unions. In theory they are great, but in practice they get implemented really poorly. I think we need to examine how other countries do unions because I agree, the one union I was in for a short time (teachers' union in California - I was basically forced to join even though the job was only temporary) felt like a ball and chain around my ankle taking a cut of my pay…

Public sector unions are a completely different ball game than private sector unions. I whole heartedly believe in worker organization and believe that tech workers should unionize, but it is also true that in a lot of different pieces of this country public sector unionization has been an unmitigated disaster. In any niche of our society that is not legible to the average person, public sector unions + the morass th…

Employer and union incentives need to align to some extent. The issue with a lot of public sector unions I see is there is no incentive for the union to be effective. Not like the employer will go bankrupt.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#425

Post by Apocryphon »

yibg wrote: post #422
Apocryphon wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't companies with better profit margins seek to increase worker compensation? Otherwise why should those workers want to work there?

I'm not sure, should they? Seems like workers would want to work at a place if they're fairly compensated (in contrast to increasing with company profits), treated well and enjoy their job. Sure you can reward employees for good company performance, and many do in forms of bonuses, equity growth etc, but 1) it's not required and 2) it's not directly correlated to company profits. I mean, if a company won a "lottery",…

Is it financially beneficial to a company? Maybe not, unless as a means to incentivize employee retention and attract high performers.

Is it something that should happen in a conceptual/philosophical/ethical sense? Perhaps as corporations become more productive and profitable while requiring fewer workers, due to technological advances, automation, etc.- perhaps this should be discussed? Why should compensation structures be frozen in amber, while the methods of production improve by leaps and bounds?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#426

Post by AnimalMuppet »

unapologetic wrote: post #404
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the flow of the argument in this subthread, it seemed at least somewhat relevant. You seem to be trying to dismiss the point, not by argument, not by evidence, but merely by being dismissive. That's not a very convincing approach.

because brining up youth unemployment and nothing else is an honest argument about the merits of unions? It's low effort. It's not useful. It provides no evidence for the argument being put forth. Really it's not even making any sort of argument. It's just a fact presented in the hopes that people will buy a tenuous at best relationship without further insight.

So jahaja raised the question, "What do you have to lose?" (by unionizing). And in response, Kalium said, "Our industry". That is, unionization often raises costs for companies (better pay, fewer hours and more benefits cost), and those costs could result in fewer jobs.

jahaja replied that "this doesn't hold up to a straight forward comparison to many European countries. If labour costs would be so detrimental to employment we'd still be queuing to the transatlantic ocean liners." Which seems to be saying that unions in Europe aren't costing jobs, so why should they in the US?

In reply to that, AndrewGaspar compared unemployment rates between the US and Europe. They are relevant to the question of whether greater unionization will cost jobs.

So: It is very much making an argument - that greater unionization costs jobs. And Europe was introduced by jahaja, a union proponent, not by the anti-union types.

But you, why do you keep trying to dismiss the topic without actually answering the point? The question is whether greater unionization hurts employment, your side raised the comparison of Europe, and the European unemployment statistics are grimmer than the US ones. Are you actually going to contribute something to the conversation, or are you going to keep trying to distract from the question at hand?

(Many of us would take your approach to mean that you know you that unions can cost jobs, you know the European data supports the point, and you just want to hide behind smokescreens because you know you don't have an answer. That's the impression you're giving. So, last chance: Do you want to concede the point? Or do you want to try to refute it?)

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#427

Post by friendlybus »

claudeganon wrote: post #412
friendlybus wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I googled it in 30 seconds. There are more too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Trade_Un... https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2tsg3e/e... Discrediting single instances of bad union behaviour is an endless game, there's a lot of history to draw from.

This is just a logic error masquerading as an argument. Discrediting single instances of x’s behavior is an endless game, therefore all instances of x are bad. You haven’t provided anything inherent to unions to discredit them that wouldn’t be true of any other form of social organization, from governments to corporations. There’s more history of unions winning protections, better wages, and improved quality of life…

I don't mind unionizing factory work on institutionalized sports, even though that can go poorly in some cases. There are some industries that have finite requirements and no amount of union bending can change the nature of the industry. There's only a few games that employ enough people to become an institution that requires worker protection. Star Citizen, Blizzard, Riot Games are institutions in their own right. Thousands of indie games are not and can make good wages or average wages by working solo or in small teams. Forcing these people to work to union rules (which will happen with union capture) breaks the model of independence for the sake of salaried employees. The large companies will merge and the industry will die. I can't agree with that.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#428

Post by mbostleman »

reaperducer wrote: post #48
bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". All the video game industry has to do is to give its workers better treatment than they would get under union stewardship. Problem solved. But I expect video games will follow the path of many other industries, and keep beating their mules until the mules revolt. It's a lesson that has played out publicly hundreds of times over the l…

>> But I expect video games will follow the path of many other industries, and keep beating their mules until the mules revolt.>>

Revolt by creating a monopoly on labor that leverages the violence of government to commandeer the decisions in the company?

Seems a a lot easier for the mules to just quit and work somewhere that fits their needs better.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#429

Post by pandaman »

burntoutfire wrote: post #272
Tiktaalik wrote: post #54

I would strongly consider supporting a video game union, if only to help formalize the things that the good shops do and bring those practices industry wide. Personally I haven't done a day of overtime in seven years and I feel reasonably compensated but there are clearly other places out there that are still exploiting their workers. Improving worker input into production schedules and creating clear guidelines arou…

I don't really understand this obsession with credits in the game dev industry. There's no credit list in GMail for example, and yet everyone is fine with it?

Game studios believe that the relevant experience is much better indication of a prospect's value than the ability to solve programming puzzles for a few hours. Credits are the proof of this experience.

Google, on the other hand, appears to be exactly opposite [1]. So, it appears that, for somebody who worked on Gmail and pursuing the similar line of work in a company similar to Google, proofs of experience would be of little value.

1. https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejectin...

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#430

Post by yibg »

jahaja wrote: post #131

How Americans can be so anti-union by default is really beyond me when looking at the facts at the ground: * A culture of overwork (especially in the game industry). * No vacation. * No parental leave. * No sick leave. * At-will-employment (which inherently causes massive under-reporting of things like sexual harassment in the workplace due to the fear of losing ones livelihood, and please spare me the "actually it's…

I don't think all Americans are inherently anti-union, just not inherently pro-union. Some of the issues you cited are real, and I think some of it can be addressed by unions. However 2 issues I see:

1) Unions aren't appropriate for all places. 2) The currently implementation and behavior of unions in the US are not all that great. For example I'm turned off of unions based on personal experience.

So for me, given the choice to vote I'd vote against an union at my current work place.

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