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Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

latimes.com

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Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#401

Post by unapologetic »

friendlybus wrote: post #318
unapologetic wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am saying that running your own show or a show with other people If you're running your own thing then you aren't a worker. You aren't part of the union. Your input on union activities is not valuable, because you are the opposition. Sorry to be harsh, but that's the truth.

What argument do you have? I feel free to identify with and as a worker.

That's fine, but you're still a boss and your opinions on unions should be treated as those of a potentially bad actor.

That's just the way it works. I can't trust you to tell me a union is a bad idea. You have too much to gain by saying no.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#402

Post by uerobert »

BigJono wrote: post #341
awb wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it okay for a company to extract a so much more money from an employee than they pay them, but not okay for employees to band together to get paid what they're worth? Salaries are based on supply and demand, not value generated. More developers at your skill level = lower salaries for everyone. More successful companies competing for talent = higher salaries for everyone. If you want compensation based on va…

> And running a business isn't exactly easy. If it was so easy to generate $1.6M off of a $300k employee, you'd be flooded with other companies willing to pay higher and higher salaries. It's really, difficult and rare. This logic is completely flawed. In-fact reality is almost the complete opposite. The difficulty of running a business is inversely proportional to your moat, and the first to market has a much easier…

Facebook is competing with other FAANG [et al] companies for talent, and not all of them are in the same sector. Their market position is only relevant in that it allows them to compete for the kind of talent that $300k a year can buy, and they deem it necessary for maintaining that position, they are not going to pay more than necessary nor are you entitled to more just because they can.

Why does it matter to you whether you make $300k at a company that makes $500k out of you or at one that makes $1m out of you? You would be doing the same job and either way being compensated at the top range of the market for the skills you have. I don't see the point.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#403

Post by Apocryphon »

yibg wrote: post #395
Apocryphon wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already do as their equity comp loses value. And the management can, by taking smaller salaries.

Sure, and you can tie the two together more with higher equity component. But the argument here is that Facebook should pay engineers more because they make a lot of money. My point is, then should a company that doesn’t make as much money (which is most) pay their employees less? Or in the cases of companies that don’t make money, not pay their employees at all?

Shouldn't companies with better profit margins seek to increase worker compensation? Otherwise why should those workers want to work there?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#404

Post by unapologetic »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #387
unapologetic wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an equally high effort response to posting unemployment rates in the first place.

Given the flow of the argument in this subthread, it seemed at least somewhat relevant. You seem to be trying to dismiss the point, not by argument, not by evidence, but merely by being dismissive. That's not a very convincing approach.

because brining up youth unemployment and nothing else is an honest argument about the merits of unions?

It's low effort. It's not useful. It provides no evidence for the argument being put forth. Really it's not even making any sort of argument. It's just a fact presented in the hopes that people will buy a tenuous at best relationship without further insight.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#405

Post by Apocryphon »

friendlybus wrote: post #400
claudeganon wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, and every person on welfare eats caviar and drives a Cadillac. The fact that this is your go to story on unions vs. the millions of well-protected and empowered workers across the world is just more evidence of how internalized this propaganda is in the US.

I googled it in 30 seconds. There are more too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Trade_Un... https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2tsg3e/e... Discrediting single instances of bad union behaviour is an endless game, there's a lot of history to draw from.

And there are endless instances of bad corporate behavior. So we are at an impasse.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#406

Post by midnightclubbed »

CydeWeys wrote: post #374
midnightclubbed wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With less and less titles shipping as boxed-product and very few of those having anything approaching an instruction booklet crediting is almost dead already. Some in-game credit screen buried in the options menu or after completing a 50+ hour campaign is about as un-readable as the end credits on a Netflix TV show. The argument against you getting a full credit is that it would list your contribution to the game as…

This argument is unsympathetic to the millions of creative professionals who deserve credit for their work. It's about a lot more than just a list of names. Authors get credit for their books. Everyone who works on a film gets credit for their contribution. This goes into your CV, resume, IMDB, whatever. It's important.

I understand but I don't see the industry going back to boxes 30 page with instruction books.

Having an industry approved crediting scheme would be wonderful but for the most part the only people viewing it is going to be people on the credits. No games industry recruiter looks at a resume and verify names against the in-game credits (or even IMDB) - they will check against references and people they know that you may have worked with. Same as every other job application.

Film may be the last industry where everyone involved still gets credited. TV credits are basically unreadable, streaming music credits only cover the artist, books only list the author.

I'm not arguing against credits, just that they are not important outside of being a cool 'thank you'.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#407

Post by unapologetic »

friendlybus wrote: post #350
unapologetic wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a decades long career as one of the more respected actors in the world and eventually an oscar.

Which he obtained from his talent, something he advertised as something he can do and others can't. Unionizing credit for his performances is as the same claiming credit for another man's work that nationalists do. https://youtu.be/CIaWo-BlBjs?t=74

The union doesn't get credit for his performance, he just places value in the union. The point is he's had a tremendously successful career while supporting the union. It hasn't hurt him. He missed out on star wars by choice.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#408

Post by CydeWeys »

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

Your comment is really rubbing me the wrong way. How is it "childish" to band together and fight for better working conditions? Because you aren't literally dying in mines you have no right to demand improvements? Your bar is that low?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#409

Post by friendlybus »

unapologetic wrote: post #399
friendlybus wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for all the times they don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Trade_Un... https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/20... https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2tsg3e/e...

explainlikeimfive, for when we really want an intellectual discussion.

Attacking appearing of argument instead of it's content is a fallacy.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#410

Post by midnightclubbed »

sangnoir wrote: post #351
midnightclubbed wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With less and less titles shipping as boxed-product and very few of those having anything approaching an instruction booklet crediting is almost dead already. Some in-game credit screen buried in the options menu or after completing a 50+ hour campaign is about as un-readable as the end credits on a Netflix TV show. The argument against you getting a full credit is that it would list your contribution to the game as…

> The argument against you getting a full credit is that it would list your contribution to the game as the same as a colleague who worked through the ship process. There should be universally-agreed rules around how crediting works: how about a case where a noob who joined a month before shipping gets credit, but someone who slogged for 2 years but quit gets relegated to "Special Thanks" despite putting more effort.…

To me no, it is not fair at all (although generally there is little to no hiring in the last few months before shipping).

From the game company perspective making the new employee feel good is better than making a former employee feel good.

What is interesting with games that are live for multiple years is how often should in-game credits be updated and how do you credit over time as people join and leave the product with differing amounts of tenure and influence.

But yes, universally agreed crediting rules would be wonderful. I don't see how the collective industry gets there outside of a union pushing for it.

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