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Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

latimes.com

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Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#351

Post by sangnoir »

midnightclubbed wrote: post #195
vvanders wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Standardizing crediting would be one close to my heart. Oh hell yeah. I did 3+ years on a title, nearly killing myself to ship it. When I realized that doing that much OT was doing to my personal relationships, health and sanity I left with a generous transition ~8mo before ship(including tossing 2.5mo of PTO because they didn't have to pay it out and I could never take it). Listed under "special thanks" as well, i…

With less and less titles shipping as boxed-product and very few of those having anything approaching an instruction booklet crediting is almost dead already. Some in-game credit screen buried in the options menu or after completing a 50+ hour campaign is about as un-readable as the end credits on a Netflix TV show. The argument against you getting a full credit is that it would list your contribution to the game as…

> The argument against you getting a full credit is that it would list your contribution to the game as the same as a colleague who worked through the ship process.

There should be universally-agreed rules around how crediting works: how about a case where a noob who joined a month before shipping gets credit, but someone who slogged for 2 years but quit gets relegated to "Special Thanks" despite putting more effort. Does that seem fair to you?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#352

Post by chimeracoder »

Symbiote wrote: post #250
legitster wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a relative who is a Teamster and pays $16k in Union dues a year. He said the math on his benefits only works out for him if he works for more than 15 years in the same position. Obviously different for different unions, but the vast majority of benefits in most unions go to those with seniority.

What!? That is over 60× the membership cost of UNITE (the largest British union). Apparently, comparisons between the US and Europe don't work here either. Maybe this is because "union shops" are allowed in the USA. Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights forbids them (the right to free association is taken to provide the right not to associate). https://unitetheunion.org/why-join/join-unite/contributio…

> Maybe this is because "union shops" are allowed in the USA.

Not only are they allowed, but they're almost universal. Unions in the US (for various historical reasons) refuse to represent a bargaining unit unless they can claim the majority of the bargaining unit, which means that, in a unionized shop, every single employee must be covered by the same union.

Unlike in Europe, there is no competition between unions for workers in the US.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#353

Post by friendlybus »

unapologetic wrote: post #246
Frondo wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What infuriates me about the GP post is: unionizing is literally one of the options they have. It's enshrined in law, has a long history, has been implemented to great benefit to scores of people worldwide -- why shouldn't that option be on the table as well for these workers? And, frankly speaking, "go find another job" is a terrible rejoinder, if they like their job, but don't like their working conditions, let the…

Unpopular opinion: Large segments of the american population don't even real realize they have foolishly internalized decades of anti-union propaganda. They just think they are smarter/better/more rational. I disagree. I think you have just eaten up the propaganda pushed by billionaires. There is an entire industry that is dedicated to pushing anti-union propaganda.

The union bosses do it to themselves:

Misuse of union funds and a union boss passing over union workers for private workers because they cost less for the job.

Utopian unions don't happen.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/20...

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#354

Post by throw_14JAS »

unapologetic wrote: post #344
throw_14JAS wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you justify taking away my right to choose where and how I work?

You're free to quit a union job whenever you want. Be part of the group or don't work here. My justification is that it drastically increases the strength of the union.

Stronger unions also have their issues. I strongly disagree that union-only shops should be allowed.

While I may be free to quit a union job, it feels quite gangster to say that I have to participate in one to take a job. I don't think the tradeoffs -- benefits from a union versus costs involved, especially when it's exclusively to pursue a career at a specific company -- favor unions.

That said, I do think unions could be stronger, and get a bad rap. To me, this seems like a problem the larger/stronger unions caused (and still cause - see police unions).

Your language - "be part of the group or don't work here" - is also a major disincentive. Artificially created black and white scenarios are reductionist.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#355

Post by Apocryphon »

friendlybus wrote: post #170
aabeshou wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The bottom line is that the supply of game developers has historically outpaced the demand. There are simply a lot of people who really want to make games, and are willing to put up with those work conditions. If game developers don't feel exploited by their conditions, then they probably won't join/create the union. If they do feel exploited, then the union will be a good thing. > Given that, it's hard to see a wa…

The employees at large companies like EA and Acti-Blizz and other big corps will join a union that will gain them more benefits at their day job. The feeder schools and universities will start getting all their students into union positions. The independent 20% will be muscled out of relevance as the union can simply ex-communicate members that break the rules and the employees will follow union rules. Independents w…

As we've never seen any examples of tech sub-industry unionize before, this whole scenario is of dubious provenance. Especially since 21st history labor relations will unlikely to mirror what happened a century ago.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#356

Post by friendlybus »

unapologetic wrote: post #347
wang_li wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also the historical union attitude towards scab labour is another way to prevent this. You mean violence? This is one of the reasons many people don't like unions.

Yes, I do mean violence. Employers have also heavily utilized violence. Then they turned to the law and misinformation. Violence is a last resort.

Advocating for violence is the one thing you can't do with free speech in the West. Everybody apologizes for that.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#357

Post by chimeracoder »

jahaja wrote: post #167
Kalium wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you actually have to lose? In some parts of the US, the answer is "Our industry". There are areas where a reasonable argument can be made that overweening unions played a key role in setting up the local economy for cataclysmic failure. Detroit is an example. That said , video games production doesn't look like that right now. It's just perhaps worth considering that people's fears might not be wholly merit…

But again. This doesn't hold up to a straight forward comparison to many European countries. If labour costs would be so detrimental to employment we'd still be queuing to the transatlantic ocean liners.

> But again. This doesn't hold up to a straight forward comparison to many European countries. If labour costs would be so detrimental to employment we'd still be queuing to the transatlantic ocean liners.

You can't use a "straightforward comparison" to Europe because labor law is so different in the US. European unions are legally required to compete with each other for workers, whereas American unions almost exclusively represent members where they assert exclusive right to representation.

That's a massive difference in incentives, and it makes for very different dynamics.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#358

Post by Apocryphon »

usefulcat wrote: post #145
aabeshou wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do unions decrease employment? I wasn't aware of that. As I said in a different comment ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21982787 ), I don't think it's 100% sure that games would become more expensive. But if they do, I think it's a tradeoff we have to make in a humane society.

I didn't say that unions decrease employment. I did describe the mechanisms by which employment might be reduced due to increasing costs (regardless of the cause of the cost increases). In the referenced comment, you speak of "profit from abuse/exploitation", which presupposes that abuse or exploitation is occurring. Most game developers (programmers at least) have skills that are valuable in other kinds of SW develo…

If our only consideration for every decision is whether or not if it will increase cost for employers, then we would still have child labor and slavery. I don't believe this is a hyperbolic statement. The specter of increased costs is used to justify opposing everything from higher minimum wages to the 40-hour workweek.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#359

Post by exabrial »

dilippkumar wrote: post #319
exabrial wrote: post #308

No thank you. I don't want a union "representing" me or seizing part of my paycheck. Furthermore, if you examine history, all this will do is send jobs and opportunities elsewhere.

+1 Also, I have dreams of developing video games in my garage some day. I don't want to deal with the video games equivalent of a screen-actors guild telling me I can't give away my games for free or that I need to adhere to some outdated regulations regarding what friends I can ask to compose music for my game and how much I can pay them for it.

Good luck getting "permission" from a union to operate a "non-union" game dev shop.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#360

Post by unapologetic »

friendlybus wrote: post #356
unapologetic wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I do mean violence. Employers have also heavily utilized violence. Then they turned to the law and misinformation. Violence is a last resort.

Advocating for violence is the one thing you can't do with free speech in the West. Everybody apologizes for that.

Incorrect. Advocating for direct violent action is illegal.

Indirectly, saying that violence can be justifiable depending on circumstance, etc... all legal.

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