Live data from Hacker News

America's Biggest Milk Producers Are Going Bankrupt

foodandwine.com

191–200 of 247 posts

Re: America's Biggest Milk Producers Are Going Bankrupt

#191
post #10

The title of the article states that milk producers are "going bankrupt," but then cites the rising costs of raw milk, which seems like a good thing for a milk producer. So I look up the company on wikipedia and Borden Dairy is a processor & distributor, not a producer. Furthermore, "employee pension obligations" being cited as a primary cause of bankruptcy without any more details raises a red flag for me. This arti…

Presumably they meant producers of the commercial product that ends up in stores, but it certainly is confusing. I thought the same thing as well.

Re: America's Biggest Milk Producers Are Going Bankrupt

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Same deal with Eggs, and why they have all the candy at the registers. And why they rearrange the store occasionally.

OMG that rearranging of the store makes me so angry. Just when I get a system down for getting in, getting what I need to get off my list, and getting out and they throw that monkey wrench in. That and using stacks of items as road blocks in the aisles to slow me down in front of higher-margin items. They don't need roadblocks with my pokey-shopping neighbors who stand in the middle of the aisle and stare at the two…

I used to be weekend staff at a clothing store that changed layouts every week. Every weekend, I'd have to relearn where everything was.

Re: America's Biggest Milk Producers Are Going Bankrupt

#193
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't discharge student loans in bankruptcy, you damn well shouldn't be able to discharge pensions you've promised your employees for decades.

Pensions are just deferred compensation, part of the total benefits package (salary, health insurance, etc). They're not entitlements, giveaways, lottery tickets, whatever. Maybe the most insidious side effect of transition to 401k was tricking people without pensions that somehow pensioners are unfairly compensated.

I disagree with a lot of that. Defined benefit plans make all the sense in the world sort of empirically or like maybe narratively(?), but the problem is that risk isn't handled equitably. 'Unfair' feels like it has more connotations than my liking, but the main source of that feeling imo is that pensions have frequently made implied rates of return that had little to no chance of realization.

It's easy to thumb your nose and say "well that's the company's problem", but what it does illustrate in a more general sense is that counterparty risk is very real, especially in underfunded pensions. While pension plans have a large amount of money saved, the reality of the situation is that part of a pensions mechanics look like a claim on a company's future earnings. That's what grinds my gears about pensions, there's a lot more risk than people think, and it's foolhardy to assume the employer assumes all the risk in theory or practice.

The best thing about the transition to 401ks imo was that it made it abundantly clear that there is a large amount of risk in funding retirement. The downside is yes, companies made it clear they were no longer willing to assume any of that risk themselves.

Re: America's Biggest Milk Producers Are Going Bankrupt

#194
post #10

The title of the article states that milk producers are "going bankrupt," but then cites the rising costs of raw milk, which seems like a good thing for a milk producer. So I look up the company on wikipedia and Borden Dairy is a processor & distributor, not a producer. Furthermore, "employee pension obligations" being cited as a primary cause of bankruptcy without any more details raises a red flag for me. This arti…

One of the issues is that Walmart opened a new dairy plant here in Indiana which considerably increased milk processing capabilities for the region, as a result companies like Dean Foods had to turn around and cancel contracts with farmers in Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina and South Carolina.

That allowed Walmart to gobble up the best of those farms (30 something farms between Indiana and Michigan), for cheaper. Given that they're processing, bottling, and distributing it to their own stores let's them sell it cheaper too, which then makes companies like Dean Foods lost contracts and now suddenly have pretty stiff competition.

Walmart didn't replace all of those contracts Dean cancelled (and I imagine other processors/distributors too) which really hurts the small guys that have 50, 100, 200 cows.

Keep in mind a cow is only good for 6-7 gallons a day, so these smaller farms just aren't worth it for a massive company like Walmart. Within 2 hours or so of the plant they're servicing close to a thousand stores (if not more once you include the grocery-only ones) so those smaller farms basically end up screwed with no one to sell that milk to.

It's not like you can just go "ok we'll let's butcher some of those cows and make some money while we figure something else out" either because, dairy cows are generally older and only good for ground beef and really cheap cuts. Even with a beef cow you're only going to get $700 or so.

At 25lbs~ of dry weight food a day per cow, you might get a little over a year of hay for one dairy cow sold for ground beef - basically those contracts getting cancelled just kill the small dairy farmers.

Re: America's Biggest Milk Producers Are Going Bankrupt

#195
post #28
post #3

A counterpoint: these companies were recently bought by private equity firm KKR Co, the same company that loaded up Toys 'R Us with debt and then liquidated it. https://mobile.twitter.com/rhinosoros/status/121424602712711... This bankruptcy filling might just be negotiation in the courts to reduce pension obligations.

I don't understand how bigger waves haven't yet been made about these locusts. Where's the New York Times expose? Proposals by Congress on how to make this vampirism illegal? Literally anything?

I mean, books have been written about PE, LBOs, raiders, and financial vampires for more than 30 years. Movies have been made. It’s literally one of the most enduring financial stories of the last 35 years.

The only thing that has changed is that PE has managed to take some cues from VCs and mount a PR campaign aimed at techies and other new-money types to make it seem like the industry isn’t as vulturistic as it has always been. And techies and new-money investors believe them. Because it’s easy to believe the wolf until he kills you or leaves you for dead.

Re: America's Biggest Milk Producers Are Going Bankrupt

#197
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditional “defined benefit” employee pensions in the US were treated as a balance sheet line item. There wasn't a separate, fenced off, account where funds were secured. In the 1980s it became popular for “corporate raiders” (today’s “private equity”) to target companies with mediocre corporate results but well funded pensions. Because the pension obligations weren't sequestered, you could legitimately take over a…

Is this still true for majority of the US working force? As an European I find it ridiculous that your pension could be wiped out like that, and not be completely separated from employer either managed by state, or dedicated pension fund manager (what I prefer but citizens have no say in this, you have to move state to change this). Companies go bankrupt all the times, small or big. If it gets wiped out, what happens…

In the worst case, yes. Most often as a creditor they get something like 20-50% of their pension. Then people often are forced to sell their house. It's devastating to be sure.

And "super basic healthcare" might actually be overstating the case.

Re: America's Biggest Milk Producers Are Going Bankrupt

#198

I’m constantly amazed at how cheap milk is in the grocery store. A gallon of Great Value 1% milk is $2.77 now. That seems low for what you are getting (a gallon of protein rich fluid milked from a cow and transported to you). How much profit could be left? I’ve heard that grocery stores sell milk for less than they buy it for just to get you into the store, because they know you will buy other things. I haven’t check…

The Federal government operates a comprehensive system to manage milk prices to consumers and also to subsidize marginal dairy producers. It's also illegal to sell raw milk and other similar products in most states. The milk producers are often not making money from the sale of milk. When milk prices drop below certain levels, the federal government steps in to subsidize dairy farmers. This creates perverse incentive…

This is true about much of the US farming system. Government subsidies have completely broken the free market.

Re: America's Biggest Milk Producers Are Going Bankrupt

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oliver is a journalist, though. That's why Snowden granted him an interview first, before anyone else in the world. Sure, he's humorous, but he's not offering his opinions except in the most general terms. He follows facts, not hype.

No, John Oliver is most definitely a comedian.

...who nonetheless has solid journalistic methods.

Re: America's Biggest Milk Producers Are Going Bankrupt

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oliver is a journalist, though. That's why Snowden granted him an interview first, before anyone else in the world. Sure, he's humorous, but he's not offering his opinions except in the most general terms. He follows facts, not hype.

Oliver's background is in entertainment and comedy. As far as I know, he's never had a traditional journalism job. Carlson started his career as a journalist, working for right-wing publications.

Yes, but being a professional journalist doesn't presently correlate with journalism skills or integrity. His work is closer to good journalism than most TV news programs or "news hours".

Funny world we live in.

Post reply on HN