Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#11

Post by adnzzzzZ » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #2

As much as I don't like the idea of unionizing tech workers in general, game development does seem like it's suffering from the kind of industry-wide coordination failure unions are built to address. Every source I've ever seen is unhappy with months-long crunch time - are there any serious arguments that it's a good development model?

Many well known game developers disagree with this notion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIvHkaV6Ri8 that this is a huge problem. All the sources you see seem unhappy because those stories get the most attention, but it doesn't mean that those things are occurring often or everywhere.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#12

Post by me_me_me » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

> I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human

You agree that this things are happening and its not OK.

why do you follow that up with:

> but it's not like you don't have options in this industry...

Clearly if people are being taken advantage of its an issue. And its issue for large enough percentage of workforce for us to talk about it.

Also this is global problem and salaries in game dev do not compare to SV. Well nothing compares to SV pay.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#13

Post by eropple » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #11

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #2

As much as I don't like the idea of unionizing tech workers in general, game development does seem like it's suffering from the kind of industry-wide coordination failure unions are built to address. Every source I've ever seen is unhappy with months-long crunch time - are there any serious arguments that it's a good development model?

Many well known game developers disagree with this notion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIvHkaV6Ri8 that this is a huge problem. All the sources you see seem unhappy because those stories get the most attention, but it doesn't mean that those things are occurring often or everywhere.

John Carmack is not a "game developer", John Carmack is an independently wealthy man who sometimes develops game engines (or VR tech, as the case may be).

Picking your random, above-99th-percentile literally-owns-multiple-Ferraris outlier and using him to discredit people who might be pulling $50K-$60K a year as line employees is downright disingenous.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#14

Post by adnzzzzZ » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #13

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many well known game developers disagree with this notion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIvHkaV6Ri8 that this is a huge problem. All the sources you see seem unhappy because those stories get the most attention, but it doesn't mean that those things are occurring often or everywhere.

John Carmack is not a "game developer", John Carmack is an independently wealthy man who sometimes develops game engines (or VR tech, as the case may be). Picking your random, above-99th-percentile literally-owns-multiple-Ferraris outlier and using him to discredit people who might be pulling $50K-$60K a year as line employees is downright disingenous.

John Carmack got to where he is by being a game developer. If you discount all wildly successful people in a field that is known to be a winner takes all environment then you won't have that many successful people to listen to.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#15

Post by criddell » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

Aperocky wrote: post #3

Can’t say for video game industry. But software engineers are both in hot demand and well compensated, as such, I personally and the people I know are mostly content and not likely to join an union.

I wouldn't rule it out. Professional athletes have great unions. Hollywood screenwriters, actors, and directors have great unions (or guilds). Couldn't software engineers benefit from a similar organization?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#16

Post by eropple » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #14

eropple wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John Carmack is not a "game developer", John Carmack is an independently wealthy man who sometimes develops game engines (or VR tech, as the case may be). Picking your random, above-99th-percentile literally-owns-multiple-Ferraris outlier and using him to discredit people who might be pulling $50K-$60K a year as line employees is downright disingenous.

John Carmack got to where he is by being a game developer. If you discount all wildly successful people in a field that is known to be a winner takes all environment then you won't have that many successful people to listen to.

John Carmack got to where he is by owning a game development company. That does not imply he didn't work at it and it doesn't imply that he didn't work hard but the difference between capital and labor is obvious and that is precisely what a union seeks to address.

(He's also a genius. And good for him for that. Most people aren't.)

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#17

Post by vvanders » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

Aperocky wrote: post #3

Can’t say for video game industry. But software engineers are both in hot demand and well compensated, as such, I personally and the people I know are mostly content and not likely to join an union.

Software engineers aren't the only one that work in that industry. On the dev-side there's a couple routes out, however on the design and art side adjacent industries are even worse meat-grinders or not an option.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#18

Post by claudeganon » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #14

eropple wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John Carmack is not a "game developer", John Carmack is an independently wealthy man who sometimes develops game engines (or VR tech, as the case may be). Picking your random, above-99th-percentile literally-owns-multiple-Ferraris outlier and using him to discredit people who might be pulling $50K-$60K a year as line employees is downright disingenous.

John Carmack got to where he is by being a game developer. If you discount all wildly successful people in a field that is known to be a winner takes all environment then you won't have that many successful people to listen to.

We should be quick to encourage genius outliers, but thats not most people, and those people shouldn’t be forced into death marches to ship games. The two concerns aren’t antithetical. Major industries like sports and entertainment, both of which are a heavy mixture of average and high-performers, are already unionized without any real drag on the exceptionally talented nor their compensation.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#19

Post by eropple » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

swarnie_ wrote: post #4

Video games need it badly, i thought technology people secured wages and benefits via negotiation and Talent?

There's high supply of "technology people" in the space because a lot of people want to make games, but you have to remember that not everybody who works at a game developer is a programmer. An artist being asked to crunch for $45K a year and who doesn't have too many other options deserves some representation, too.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#20

Post by crusso » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

Early in my career I was interested in game development because I had dabbled in graphics programming personally and it seemed like more fun than other types of development.

A cursory look into opportunities showed that the schedules were grueling and driven by the market, which expects new flashy titles quite often but the demand for the new titles tails off relatively quickly. Worse, it's not like a spreadsheet where you can just fix some bugs, add some new features, then charge people for upgrades. You're constantly rewriting everything.

So I made the decision to not go into that market.

Software development skills are fairly fungible. I'd advise people to not go into game development unless they have a real passion for it and don't mind the demands upon them that are derived from the market forces.