SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#61

Post by kapuasuite » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 10:01 PM UTC

oppositelock wrote: post #55

Lukeas14 wrote: post #52

I once spent an hour sitting in the SF planning office on Mission and it was the most eye opening experience in regards to the city's building issues. Most of the discussions are done in the open so you can hear the conversations between the planners and people looking to get permits. Almost every convo started with "...so your permit looks good but I won't approve it until you make [some irrelevant, arbitrary change…

It's not just SF, I sat in on some such meetings in Mountain View. It's petty tyrants in positions of power showing the plebes the extent of their authority. One of them even acknowledged that everything was up to code in a restaurant, but they wanted changes made anyway due to subjective aesthetics.

And somehow this all passes Constitutional muster...

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#62

Post by kapuasuite » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 10:02 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #54

zip1234 wrote: post #9

So what good do use based zoning rules do? I can see prohibiting heavy industrial or chemical in residential areas but outside of that it seems like more harm than good.

Restrictive commercial zoning limits competition for a space, enabling businesses that could not otherwise afford to be there. It’s a way for a community to inject some central planning and override the market when they disagree with its wisdom, e.g to kill the local independent coffee shop in favor of Blue Bottle. It’s also a way to concentrate traffic where there’s infrastructure to support it, and limit it where t…

“ Proponents would say that that a good central plan adds value more value to the city as a whole than it costs in local inefficiencies.”

This seems...unlikely.

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#63

Post by buss » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

If you're tired of shit like this, you gotta vote for people who want the city to be more tech-friendly and have sensible rules. In particular, vote for me ;) https://buss2020.org

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#64

Post by Ohn0 » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

kapuasuite wrote: post #61

oppositelock wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just SF, I sat in on some such meetings in Mountain View. It's petty tyrants in positions of power showing the plebes the extent of their authority. One of them even acknowledged that everything was up to code in a restaurant, but they wanted changes made anyway due to subjective aesthetics.

And somehow this all passes Constitutional muster...

Does anyone really care about the Constitution anymore? At least in SF, I doubt so.

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#65

Post by Ohn0 » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

buss wrote: post #63

If you're tired of shit like this, you gotta vote for people who want the city to be more tech-friendly and have sensible rules. In particular, vote for me ;) https://buss2020.org

You can't ban the ban's... they're the favorite way to virtue signal your higher morality from the top down.

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#66

Post by brudgers » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 10:26 PM UTC

kapuasuite wrote: post #57

brudgers wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but a bit more subtle. The Cafe was invited to apply for conditional use. It appears (from my limited research) that within the Financial District (and whatever overlays might apply) ground floor office use is not allowed by right. Conditional use means that office use on the ground floor requires approval based on what is actually proposed. The Cafe might readily be approved as a conditional use or might be a…

Does by right even exist in San Francisco? My understanding is all land use is subject to review and approval at the discretion of the Board of Supervisors.

From reading the appeal, it appears a restaurant use is by right in that location.

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#67

Post by brudgers » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 10:41 PM UTC

languagehacker wrote: post #51

This is a fair interpretation of zoning laws, but I don't think it respects the reality of most coffee shops. What I liked about Workshop (other than being one of the only places in FiDi you could get Stumptown for a while) was that it was explicit about the real trade going on in many coffee shops. If you're spending more than a half hour at a coffee shop, you're there to work. You're playing this game where you're…

They could have applied as a conditional use. It exists exactly for good ideas that aren’t quite obviously good. For uses which are good or bad for a locale depending on the specific details of the project. That’s not San Francisco, that’s pretty much every urban area in the US.

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#68

Post by Decade » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 12:57 AM UTC

kapuasuite wrote: post #61

oppositelock wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just SF, I sat in on some such meetings in Mountain View. It's petty tyrants in positions of power showing the plebes the extent of their authority. One of them even acknowledged that everything was up to code in a restaurant, but they wanted changes made anyway due to subjective aesthetics.

And somehow this all passes Constitutional muster...

Sadly, the racist Supreme Court under former President Taft ruled that the city does have pretty much unrestricted ability to interfere with what people do in their homes and businesses, as a police power. Euclid v. Ambler (1926) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_of_Euclid_v._Ambler_Re....

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#69

Post by Decade » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 1:07 AM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #66

kapuasuite wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does by right even exist in San Francisco? My understanding is all land use is subject to review and approval at the discretion of the Board of Supervisors.

From reading the appeal, it appears a restaurant use is by right in that location.

You would imagine so, but every permit that does not have a state-level override (for example, SB-35 of 2017) is subject to discretion of the Planning Commission. Which is an unelected commission with members appointed by the mayor or the Board of Supervisors.

Most permits go through anyway, because the Commission chooses not to involve itself in everything, but every permit can be appealed with an application for Discretionary Review. https://sf.curbed.com/2013/4/17/10252934/what-the-heck-is-di...

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#70

Post by burlesona » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 1:17 AM UTC

buss wrote: post #63

If you're tired of shit like this, you gotta vote for people who want the city to be more tech-friendly and have sensible rules. In particular, vote for me ;) https://buss2020.org

Good platform, thanks for sharing! It's a little sad to me that SF is a one-party town, and thus the real work of governance happens in the back rooms like this, but I think it's great that you're tackling that head on.