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Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

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Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#171
post #99

I am worried about the recent trend of "ethical AI", "interpretable models" etc. IMO it attracts people that can't come with SOTA advances in real problems and its their "easier, vague target" to hit and finish their PhDs while getting published in top journals. Those same people will likely at some point call for a strict regulation of AI using their underwhelming models to keep their advantage, faking results of th…

Leaving interpretability and conspiracy theories about softy PhDs aside, for a bit, "SOTA advances" are not progress. e.g., in the last seven years since AlexNet, results have kept creeping upwards by tiny fractions on the same old datasets (or training times and costs have gone down) all of which is achieved by slight tweaks to the basic CNN architecture and perhaps better training techniques, or, of course more compute. But there has not been any substantial progress in fundamental algorithmic techniques- no new alternative to backpropagation, no radically new architectures that go beyond convolutional filters.

But I'll let Geoff Hinton himself explain why the reliance on state-of-the-art results is effectively hamstringing progress in the field:

GH: One big challenge the community faces is that if you want to get a paper published in machine learning now it's got to have a table in it, with all these different data sets across the top, and all these different methods along the side, and your method has to look like the best one. If it doesn’t look like that, it’s hard to get published. I don't think that's encouraging people to think about radically new ideas.

Now if you send in a paper that has a radically new idea, there's no chance in hell it will get accepted, because it's going to get some junior reviewer who doesn't understand it. Or it’s going to get a senior reviewer who's trying to review too many papers and doesn't understand it first time round and assumes it must be nonsense. Anything that makes the brain hurt is not going to get accepted. And I think that's really bad.

What we should be going for, particularly in the basic science conferences, is radically new ideas. Because we know a radically new idea in the long run is going to be much more influential than a tiny improvement. That's I think the main downside of the fact that we've got this inversion now, where you've got a few senior guys and a gazillion young guys.

https://www.wired.com/story/googles-ai-guru-computers-think-...

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's also important to remember a lot of human models were abandoned because of the inherent bias and black-boxed nature of them (feelings, subjectivity, etc.). This is one of the reasons the scientific method blossomed: objectivity, rigor, transparency, reproducibility, etc. Black boxes can lead to bad decisions because it's difficult to question the process leading to decisions or highlight flaws in conclus…

> I think it's also important to remember a lot of human models were abandoned because of the inherent bias The industry needs to stop misusing the term bias this way. Virtually every attempt to find this supposed human bias has failed. Latest public example was Amazon and hiring[1] Bias is the tendency to consistently mis-classify towards a certain class or tendency to consistently to over or under-estimate. Somehow…

Hold up. Bias is being used in two different manners because it has two differed meanings. When you are using bias in industry you are talking about a minor mathematical factor added to a learning rate. When we talk about human bias, we aren't. The term was never hijacked, it just has multiple meanings.

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in spirit, but a lot of human behaviors, derived from decisions, don’t have consequences. Did Nestle face consequences for their decisions to promote formula, etc?

Let's not confuse accountability of decision making entity with consequences faced by the accountability. I was referring to the former, not the latter. The former is a case for law, the latter is a subject of law enforcement. In the case of Nestlé, you have a clear assigned accountable entity. We don't have that with algorithmic decision making (yet) where organizations wash off their hands saying "Oops! It was an a…

Why would organizations not be responsible for decisions made by an algorithm? After all they are still the entity who decided to use that algorithm, and to execute the decision.

Sure, they say "Oops! It was an algorithm, we didn't do anything!", but is that any different than management saying "Oops! It was just a rogue employee, we didn't do anything!" For anything sufficiently consequential or systematic the second excuse doesn't work, so why should the first excuse work?

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#174
post #99

I am worried about the recent trend of "ethical AI", "interpretable models" etc. IMO it attracts people that can't come with SOTA advances in real problems and its their "easier, vague target" to hit and finish their PhDs while getting published in top journals. Those same people will likely at some point call for a strict regulation of AI using their underwhelming models to keep their advantage, faking results of th…

Leaving interpretability and conspiracy theories about softy PhDs aside, for a bit, "SOTA advances" are not progress. e.g., in the last seven years since AlexNet, results have kept creeping upwards by tiny fractions on the same old datasets (or training times and costs have gone down) all of which is achieved by slight tweaks to the basic CNN architecture and perhaps better training techniques, or, of course more com…

> no new alternative to backpropagation, no radically new architectures that go beyond convolutional filters.

Attention

My point wasn't about lack of investment/propagation of fundamental research that is not trendy, it was about hijacking what should be science by "softy PhDs" that found a niche in less demanding areas and will likely impose their will over the ones who are doing hard science and not politics, like how CoCs were recently used to take control over open source/free software licenses by some fringe non-technical groups. It's a pattern that is repeating across all industry and academia in the past, the ones that move field forward are often displaced by their "soft-skilled" and less-capable peers.

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#175
post #166

I think it's important to note that human pattern recognition is basically black-box as well. We can't "explain" how we recognize a particular person's face, for example. Robust pattern recognition based on 100+'s of factors is just inherently black box. Even when people make decisions, they're generally a weighted combination of a bunch of "feelings". We attempt to explain a kind of simple, logical rationalization a…

Was the fact that objects fall down a "black box" before Newton came up with some equations? I don't think its fair to describe CNN's and human vision as being black boxes in the same way.

The fact that objects fall down was well understood, obviously. What wasn't understood was the mechanism that makes this happen. Why did that apple fall down instead of up? Where exactly is down a round earth? Where is down when I stand next to the Himalaya? Why don't planets fall down?

In my eyes this is very similar to our lack of understanding about the inner workings of a CNN, or human vision. We understand the input and the output and their rough relationship, we just don't understand how the move from input to output happens.

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's also important to remember a lot of human models were abandoned because of the inherent bias and black-boxed nature of them (feelings, subjectivity, etc.). This is one of the reasons the scientific method blossomed: objectivity, rigor, transparency, reproducibility, etc. Black boxes can lead to bad decisions because it's difficult to question the process leading to decisions or highlight flaws in conclus…

> I think it's also important to remember a lot of human models were abandoned because of the inherent bias The industry needs to stop misusing the term bias this way. Virtually every attempt to find this supposed human bias has failed. Latest public example was Amazon and hiring[1] Bias is the tendency to consistently mis-classify towards a certain class or tendency to consistently to over or under-estimate. Somehow…

If an algorithm is clearly sorting on irrelevant criterion, especially a black box algorithm, we normally assume it's a bug. It's not reasonable to reverse that, assume the code is incapable of being mistaken and say that obviously irrelevant criterion are somehow correct in an unknown way.

Amazon's problem is a bug, they even describe it's nature. And given how flawed their recommendation algorithms are, it's especially unreasonable to assume this one is infallible.

So that linked Reuters does not show a failure to find bias, if anything it shows a design error.

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's also important to remember a lot of human models were abandoned because of the inherent bias The industry needs to stop misusing the term bias this way. Virtually every attempt to find this supposed human bias has failed. Latest public example was Amazon and hiring[1] Bias is the tendency to consistently mis-classify towards a certain class or tendency to consistently to over or under-estimate. Somehow…

If an algorithm is clearly sorting on irrelevant criterion, especially a black box algorithm, we normally assume it's a bug. It's not reasonable to reverse that, assume the code is incapable of being mistaken and say that obviously irrelevant criterion are somehow correct in an unknown way. Amazon's problem is a bug, they even describe it's nature. And given how flawed their recommendation algorithms are, it's especi…

You say "obviously irrelevant criterion"

Data says criterion is an eigenvalue and no matter how hard amazon tried to blind the solution to that eigenvalue, the ML system kept finding ways to infer it because it was that strongly correlated with the fitness function.

This is the difference between political newspeak '''bias''' and actual bias. Amazon scrapped the model despite it performing just fine and being bias-free, because it kept finding ways to discriminate on a protected attribute which is a PR nightmare in the age of political outrage cancel culture. It's fine to explicitly decide that some attributes should not be discriminated upon, but this comes with a cost either in terms of model utility or in terms of discrimination against other demographics. There's no way around this. In designing operational decision making systems, one must explicitly choose a victim demographic or not to implement the system at all. There's no everyone-wins scenario.

The harm of the newspeak version of '''bias''' is that it misleads people into thinking that making system inputs uniform somehow makes it bias-free when the opposite is typically true. Worse, it creates the impression that some kind of magical bias-free system can exist where everyone is treated fairly, even though we've formally demonstrated that to be false.

No amount of white-boxing or model transparency will get around this trilemma. The sooner the industry comes to grips with it and learns to explicitly wield it when required, the better.

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#178

I think it's important to note that human pattern recognition is basically black-box as well. We can't "explain" how we recognize a particular person's face, for example. Robust pattern recognition based on 100+'s of factors is just inherently black box. Even when people make decisions, they're generally a weighted combination of a bunch of "feelings". We attempt to explain a kind of simple, logical rationalization a…

> Even when people make decisions, they're generally a weighted combination of a bunch of "feelings". We attempt to explain a kind of simple, logical rationalization afterwards, but psychologists have shown that this is often a bunch of post-hoc fiction.

Does it matter? If a brain counstructs post-hoc argument for given decision and the argument is defensible against other arguments, then the argument itself is good enough substantiation of the decision, even if it is different from the actual decision process.

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an algorithm is clearly sorting on irrelevant criterion, especially a black box algorithm, we normally assume it's a bug. It's not reasonable to reverse that, assume the code is incapable of being mistaken and say that obviously irrelevant criterion are somehow correct in an unknown way. Amazon's problem is a bug, they even describe it's nature. And given how flawed their recommendation algorithms are, it's especi…

You say "obviously irrelevant criterion" Data says criterion is an eigenvalue and no matter how hard amazon tried to blind the solution to that eigenvalue, the ML system kept finding ways to infer it because it was that strongly correlated with the fitness function. This is the difference between political newspeak '''bias''' and actual bias. Amazon scrapped the model despite it performing just fine and being bias-fr…

>No amount of white-boxing or model transparency will get around this trilemma. The sooner the industry comes to grips with it and learns to explicitly wield it when required, the better.

Agreed. The optima of multiple criterion will essentially never intersect.

But for Amazon, there is no evidence the tool was accurately selecting the best candidates. They themselves never said it was. After all, altering word choices in a trivial way dramatically affects ranking. On the points you mention, why should we assume their data was relevant or their fitness function even doing what they thought? If they were naive enough, they could just be building something that predicts what the staff of an e-commerce monopoly in a parallel universe will look like.

The most likely story is that they failed at what they were doing. Part of that failure happened to be controversial and so got unwanted attention. I would guess there were quite a few incredible correlations the tool "discovered" that did not get to press.

At any rate, their recommendation engine is more important and has been worked on longer yet it is conspicuously flawed. When their recommendation tool inspires awe then maybe we could take their recruiting engine seriously enough to imagine it has found deep socio-psychological-genetic secrets.

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