Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How My School and District Failed its Students

anurbanteacherseducation.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 130 posts

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#121

Post by wiredfool »

earl wrote: post #86
dfghjkfgh wrote: post #59

The solution is simple - increase teacher salaries and have more computers in schools. It's worked for the last 30years

Sadly, no. See, eg, [1] for a chart of teacher salaries vs inflation over time. Quoting the article: "[...] we also find dramatic erosion in relative teacher earnings since 1960." See also figure C, "Real weekly wage trends for teachers and others, 1979 - 2006". In short, teacher's have been taking a hit in the wallet for the privilege of teaching for 30-40 years. In fact, if you're familiar with employment in Americ…

That wikipedia link should be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease .

When I was in school and played cards on the bus, sometimes we played capitalisim, a fun game if you were on the top of the heap. Invariably the lowest status role was named teacher. Next up was garbageman.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#122

Post by hardik988 »

ericd wrote: post #116
hardik988 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with corporal punishment (in an Indian perspective) is, the highly underpaid teachers don't quite know when to stop beating the child. Almost every month, I hear about kids being beaten to death in schools in rural / semi-urban India, and the helpless parents can only wail as the justice system is so screwed up.

Seriously? It seems pretty easy to know how not to beat someone to death. It's very easy to inflict a lot of pain with only superficial injury - with a cane or paddle, for example.

It may be easy for you or for me, but there's not shortage of deranged teachers in rural India.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#123

Post by radioactive21 »

ZachPruckowski wrote: post #120
jordan0day wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm sure your premise is entirely correct, blaming parenting is essentially punting on the issue. It might be entirely accurate, but it doesn't help any, because it is one thing that can't be changed by the teacher or school administrator.

OK, but if teachers and administrators can't do more than write nasty notes in files and make kids sit in the corner, and we can't expect parents to discipline their kids, then any sort of educational reform targeted at those kids is basically trying to push a string. This idea that a teacher can stand up in front of the class and say something so inspiring that it magically makes the goof-offs and the slackers want…

I completely agree with you. When I talk to people about the education system, little or no mention is made towards the parents. When it is in fact the parents that can actually do something. Meaning checking to see if your child is learning, how is he learning, where does he have dificulties, and why.

When a parent can understand at what level their child is at in their educational path, then they can make an impact. Meaning, if my child has problems just sitting down and absorbing information, they can go out and find answers.

One large part of why the educational system is so bad right now, is that parents are not taking responsibility for their child's education. They blame it on others.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#124

Post by ZachPruckowski »

radioactive21 wrote: post #123
ZachPruckowski wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but if teachers and administrators can't do more than write nasty notes in files and make kids sit in the corner, and we can't expect parents to discipline their kids, then any sort of educational reform targeted at those kids is basically trying to push a string. This idea that a teacher can stand up in front of the class and say something so inspiring that it magically makes the goof-offs and the slackers want…

I completely agree with you. When I talk to people about the education system, little or no mention is made towards the parents. When it is in fact the parents that can actually do something. Meaning checking to see if your child is learning, how is he learning, where does he have dificulties, and why. When a parent can understand at what level their child is at in their educational path, then they can make an impact…

It's not even that hard. It's not like we need them to check their kids' homework and go over it with them (though that'd be great). It's a mindset issue. If you can instill in your kids that learning is important and getting good grades is crucial and respecting parents and teachers is non-negotiable, that's like half the battle right there.

I'm not saying that all children should mindlessly obey whatever they're told by authority figures, but I think we can all get together on "shut up while the teacher is talking"

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#125

Post by ZachPruckowski »

maxklein wrote: post #36

I come from a family of educators & private school owners, and if a teacher cannot handle a disruptive class, then we change the teacher. Children are ALWAYS disruptive. It's the natural state of things. Some teachers can solve the problem, and some can't. If a teacher cannot solve the problem, it's not the fault of the Government, or the Community, or the Principal or the Students. It's the fault of the teacher. It'…

In a private school, that's probably a decent solution. Generally, people willing to send their kids to a private school are probably the parents who (a) put a premium on their kid's education and (b) make their children behave at least somewhat civilly most of the time. That cuts out a lot of the problem cases of children who face no consequences at home and who have no incentive to learn. Private schools also get to select on competence in many cases. You're not going to have someone who's reading on a 4th grade level in your senior English class, as happens at public schools. And you can refuse hard discipline cases and/or expel them, which they can't do in public schools.

In that environment, a teacher should be able to control the students. But you can't expect a system that works in those conditions to work in non-optimal conditions.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#126

Post by ZachPruckowski »

swift wrote: post #3
maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

I couldn't concur more; some students are just not mentally or emotionally prepared for school. Forcing them to attend is stressful for them and for the people around them. The ideal solution, to me, would be two-pronged: 1. Stop forcing people who don't want to go to school to be there. 2. Make it easy for people to change their minds and return to school later. I think #2 is absolutely necessary if #1 is to be impl…

There is no valid solution for #2. Even for someone with a genius-level IQ and a desire to learn, making up for a few missed weeks of school is challenging. Making up a few months is basically impossible, especially if you're the type who was pre-disposed to drop out in the first place. With intensive one-on-one tutoring maybe, but that's not realistic budget-wise. And nobody is going to want to go back and be the 17-year-old in 9th grade with a bunch of 14-year-olds, because it's embarrassing (and if you think you can change the dynamic of teenagers teasing each other, good luck).

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#127

Post by ZachPruckowski »

arethuza wrote: post #47
pavel_lishin wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many students in private schools throw rocks at teachers, and threaten to break their cracker ass in two? Two part question, if I may - how many students have brought knives to class?

Most good private schools have very little time for disruptive pupils - they know that there is nothing like a "problem" kid for upsetting the classroom and they usually have a long queue of parents desperate to get their kids in.

Which ironically means that the private schools get to bleed the public schools of their positive influencers and can shove all the discipline problems right back on the public schools.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#128

Post by arethuza »

ZachPruckowski wrote: post #127
arethuza wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most good private schools have very little time for disruptive pupils - they know that there is nothing like a "problem" kid for upsetting the classroom and they usually have a long queue of parents desperate to get their kids in.

Which ironically means that the private schools get to bleed the public schools of their positive influencers and can shove all the discipline problems right back on the public schools.

From what I've seen kids who have a problem in private schools tend to either simply get shuffled around to another private school or end up in very strict boarding schools (often ones with traditional connections to the military).

You are correct though about private schools taking positive elements from the state school system - when you look at who typically attends a private school here the parents are typically successful, extremely motivated people who tend to pass these values onto their kids.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#129

Post by jordan0day »

radioactive21 wrote: post #123
ZachPruckowski wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but if teachers and administrators can't do more than write nasty notes in files and make kids sit in the corner, and we can't expect parents to discipline their kids, then any sort of educational reform targeted at those kids is basically trying to push a string. This idea that a teacher can stand up in front of the class and say something so inspiring that it magically makes the goof-offs and the slackers want…

I completely agree with you. When I talk to people about the education system, little or no mention is made towards the parents. When it is in fact the parents that can actually do something. Meaning checking to see if your child is learning, how is he learning, where does he have dificulties, and why. When a parent can understand at what level their child is at in their educational path, then they can make an impact…

Again, I think I am in total agreement with you and ZachPruckowski... I just don't see how we could make parent involvement part of the system as a whole.

I mean, maybe that really is it -- we have truancy laws where a parent can get in actual legal trouble if their kid doesn't go to school, perhaps there should be laws where a parent can actually get into trouble if their kid is a disruptive student. I have a hard time seeing such a system actually working, "can't legislate morality" and other platitudes, but it's a thought, I suppose.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#130

Post by mea36 »

jordan0day wrote: post #119
hardik988 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with corporal punishment (in an Indian perspective) is, the highly underpaid teachers don't quite know when to stop beating the child. Almost every month, I hear about kids being beaten to death in schools in rural / semi-urban India, and the helpless parents can only wail as the justice system is so screwed up.

That really sucks if true. Like ericd says, however, I don't think you can beat someone to death when administering corporal punishment just because you "didn't quite know when to stop". I think you're giving the beater too much leeway. I'm not really advocating the return of corporal punishment in American schools. It's such a political issue, and potential liability, that I have a hard time seeing it ever making a…

Ya, this is definitely true. I can't attest to children being that beaten badly in India, but when I taught at an elementary school in the Himalayas beating the students was common place. The first day I walked into a classroom I was given a bamboo stick by the child in charge of the class.

First I tried not resorting to the stick, then I would scare the students with the stick (by swinging at them and missing or stopping just short or their body), but eventually they learned I wouldn't actually hit them. The class would occasionally get so bad that the child in charge of the class would go around and hit his own classmates.

Unfortunately they responded to the abuse and would quiet down.

I think it's all the culture. It goes back to how the parents discipline the kids and how primary school teachers discipline the students.

I don't believe in corporal punishment in any school, I think this problem can be solved in

Post reply on HN