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Ditch Starbucks and work at the library

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Re: Ditch Starbucks and work at the library

#131

Post by neild »

tptacek wrote: post #96
neild wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading the Slate article you're citing when it first came out. It's a fairly amusing one, which can be summarized as: "Wealthy person without a lick of business sense opens the 'café' of his dreams, declines to do any work himself, and goes out of business." It's entirely irrelevant to the economics of the average coffee shop. First off, it's not clear to me whether the establishment the author opened was…

That's a caricature of the article. Here are some salient excepts. Which parts of them do you disagree with? [...] The logistics of a food establishment that seats between 20 and 25 people (which roughly corresponds to the definition of "cozy") are such that the place will stay afloat—barely—as long as its owners spend all of their time on the job. There is a golden rule, long cherished by restaurateurs, for determin…

I'm not certain why you're so emphatically insisting that an article that is a pure anecdote--a case study of a single failed business--is more relevant than industry-wide data. You're quick to insult me for citing "a single study from an industry marketing organization", but you aren't citing anything.

You state: "your analysis assumes that the coffee shop market is divided between 'Starbucks' and 'Independents'." It does not, and I'm not certain how you can read it that way. Also, describing what I referred to as a "back of the envelope calculation" as "analysis" is silly.

Furthermore, the comment that I was originally responding to did not distinguish between chain coffee shops and independent ones, so your insistence on excluding Starbucks from consideration is bizarre.

Do you have anything to offer other than insults and an anecdote? You appear to be arguing with some passion for the proposition that coffee shops are money losing operations. Provide some evidence, some reason for believing this other than a single Slate article about a single failed business in trendy part of Manhattan.

Re: Ditch Starbucks and work at the library

#132

Post by JacobAldridge »

jarek wrote: post #112
rbanffy wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...using it to do the things I can do on my phone, on my way to the well-paying job You really shouldn't watch porn on your phone while you drive. ;-)

Maybe he's on a train. In a personal compartment.

Actually, I was referring to Facebook, Myspace and YouTube (from the parent comment) more than the porn, though it doesn't read like that! And I don't actually have a smartphone, so the only thing I can do with my phone on the Underground when going to work is ... tell the time.

Re: Ditch Starbucks and work at the library

#133

Post by code_duck »

SwellJoe wrote: post #101
code_duck wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past I have lived or died by Starbucks and Caribou - driving around Omaha or some random town in Colorado trying to find public internet access. Now that I have a phone with national internet access, truly mobile internet is going to completely change how I work when I travel. The rest stops with wifi have been fun finds in the past. There's one 50 miles west of Omaha for instance with decent wireless internet…

My Kindle was priceless in Canada. It has free 3G web browsing, even internationally...so, when I was stopping for the night, I'd do a search for "free wifi (city-name)", and punch the resulting address into the GPS. The Kindle browser is completely unusable for normal browsing (it's like browsing from 1994), but it's acceptable for that one query. I've found that rest stops with WiFi are rarely in working condition.…

Wifi is indeed usually atrocious at rest stops, which is why the one in Nebraska was such a find (my standard is 'works well for 8 bit VNC'). I find they usually 'work', technically, but the signal quality is very poor.

Some hotels have been similarly ruined for me by lack of acceptable internet service. As an entrepreneur, I'm never on a real vacation and thus a reliable, stable, reasonably fast connection is even more important than working plumbing. If a 3G device can take care of that, it's quite a relief. I always dreaded that I would sign in at a hotel, go to my room, and find the internet connection was lousy.

Re: Ditch Starbucks and work at the library

#134

Post by RickHull »

mhb wrote: post #63
RickHull wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my (biased, but well-founded) experience, it comes down to a question of whether I'd rather be distracted by a cute girl or an old man getting reprimanded for looking at dirty pictures. Ha! Reminds me of my Brooklyn Public Library experience. The building looks fantastic on the outside, but on the inside it is a dreary, institutional wasteland. I had to pick my inspiration up off the floor when I walked in. http…

The cost and monthly fee for a cell modem is pretty negligible compared to the benefit of a rent-free workspace.

You still need power, though.

Re: Ditch Starbucks and work at the library

#135

Post by tptacek »

neild wrote: post #131
tptacek wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a caricature of the article. Here are some salient excepts. Which parts of them do you disagree with? [...] The logistics of a food establishment that seats between 20 and 25 people (which roughly corresponds to the definition of "cozy") are such that the place will stay afloat—barely—as long as its owners spend all of their time on the job. There is a golden rule, long cherished by restaurateurs, for determin…

I'm not certain why you're so emphatically insisting that an article that is a pure anecdote--a case study of a single failed business--is more relevant than industry-wide data. You're quick to insult me for citing "a single study from an industry marketing organization", but you aren't citing anything . You state: "your analysis assumes that the coffee shop market is divided between 'Starbucks' and 'Independents'."…

See below, posted 20 minutes before you wrote this.

Re: Ditch Starbucks and work at the library

#137

Post by dhimes »

alexophile wrote: post #98
dhimes wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a George Carlin pun: "Johnson sends Humphrey a broad (abroad). Details, along with some wild films, after these messages." "Broad" is an old-fashion slang reference for woman in the US- much like "chick" became later. People who used the term "broad" non-perjoratively are well into their seventies now.

I was under the impression that the only way to use "broad" non-pejoratively is in reference to the actual breadth of something. That being said, sometimes it's safer to study abroad from afar.

Yes, you can't say it any more... It actually fell out of favor long ago, but originally it wasn't considered all that bad of a term IIRC (I was pretty young).

Re: Ditch Starbucks and work at the library

#138

Post by carbon8 »

Gormo wrote: post #16
Roritharr wrote: post #2

Well, actually i did work at the library, but i changed for one reason to my local coffeeplace: taking and making calls. Thats the one reason i've left the library. I tried a starbucks for working but he is right, the tables are not big enough etc, so i actually went to a local coffeeshop and talked to the owner about me liking to work at his place. I made a deal with him, i did all the quick-wins of online advertise…

I wonder if there's a market for a coffee shop that has small, private office spaces available, perhaps available for free or for an hourly rent. These might be the size of a typical restaurant booth (or a bit larger), but would be enclosed spaces that allow you to block out noise and distractions. It wouldn't even need to be a coffee shop; maybe something like a capsule hotel for workspaces.

Basically what you are describing is a coworking space. Coworking spaces are great, but from the perspective of an operator (I recently opened one) it's not a business to go into if you are looking to make money with it. Rent can only be so cheap (and in the US the commercial real estate market is already picking up again), you only have so much space and people are only willing to pay a certain amount. It's also logistically more difficult to manage and monitor an hourly pricing structure than one that's per visit/day/week/month and those longer periods require larger lump sums then some people are willing to pay.

Coffee shops, which are more profitable but also not usually a huge money makers, can make money from walk-ins and, due to the lower upfront prices, require less commitment from each customer. There are a few hybrid coffee shop/coworking spaces, but it's unclear how viable the model actually is. Commercial espresso machines are very expensive ($10K-$15K+), barista salaries are an additional expense and you need to balance serving people who walk in with the people who are on the coworking side. Also, if you have things like enclosed booths that means you have to fit in fewer people per square ft.

So, there's often a market there, but the economics are such that it's hard to make it very profitable, certainly much harder than many other businesses. Still, just so this doesn't sound completely pessimistic, it's not much work to maintain a straight coworking space (not much more than a regular office), it's entirely possible to make enough money to offset the work you put into it and there is a lot of value that extends beyond the immediate financial compensation.

Re: Ditch Starbucks and work at the library

#139

Post by rue »

eavc wrote: post #31
Gormo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there's a market for a coffee shop that has small, private office spaces available, perhaps available for free or for an hourly rent. These might be the size of a typical restaurant booth (or a bit larger), but would be enclosed spaces that allow you to block out noise and distractions. It wouldn't even need to be a coffee shop; maybe something like a capsule hotel for workspaces.

At that point, you might as well find co-working space with decent coffee.

Sadly there isn't a single co-working space in this city. Starting one doesn't sound like a viable business plan either.

Re: Ditch Starbucks and work at the library

#140

Post by kadavy »

I did some work at the main branch of the Chicago Public Library yesterday. It was okay, but full of homeless people and not really all that quiet.

The Lincoln Park Whole Foods is my new favorite spot. I work all afternoon, have a really healthy dinner, then do some writing over a wine flight.

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