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On Privacy versus Freedom

matrix.org

121–130 of 209 posts

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#121
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

E2E in Matrix "works" with which Matrix clients? The whole point of a decentralized federated messaging protocol is to allow people to build their own clients. Do Matrix clients uniformly and interoperably support E2E today?

Nearly; we’re aiming to force on E2E by default at end of Jan (but it’s getting tight). There are at least 6 complete independent implementations, and once cross-signing lands it’s good to go. For clients/bots/bridges without E2E we have pantalaimon (a clientside daemon which you proxy all the traffic through in order to encrypt it).

Out of curiosity, what are these implementations?

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#122
Matthew outlined much of the Matrix problems but not in the context of the latter part of his idealistic thoughts.

Just going to point out that if agreeing on spec is six time slower, that's just the first car of traffic jam slowing down. The next car has to slow down more: The feature needs to move into SDKs. Then the next car, the client vendors need to actually implement and test their implementation of the feature and write documentation. That's even more slow.

"HOWEVER: all of this completely ignores one critical thing - the value of freedom."

I really value freedom. To me freedom means a non-technical dissident doesn't have to sit in jail when their messages weren't E2EE. It doesn't mean I can choose a value from a list of servers and have faceless entity #1, #2 or #3, or worse, Mike - the creepy IT guy from my peers - observe my metadata with everybody, and content with Karen who refuses to switch to Matrix client that supports E2EE.

"Freedom to run your own server (perhaps invisibly in your app, in a P2P world)."

Now this is something I can get behind. Which is why I've spent the last eight years working on P2P messaging system. Perhaps Matrix should move their efforts into being the change they want to see in the world instead of defending a bad solution of decentralization by saying they're thinking about implementing a better solution of P2P.

"Freedom to pick which country your server runs in"

Which you can't do if you're running P2P server on your device. I think every faceless service provider from Signal to any XMPP server has the same guarantee of privacy in practice. The only difference is Signal has to abide by the GDPR, independent users hosting servers don't. Before anyone screams about PRISM, I will point out that coercing insertion of a backdoor is the same as compelled speech, which would violate the constitution.

"Freedom to select how much metadata and history to keep."

We have precedence of Signal keeping none of that. With Matrix servers the server has access to all metadata by default, the server program doesn't attempt to hide anything, there's no sealed sender etc. Your only hope is to run your own server, somehow convince your peers you're the one they should trust with their metadata (there's a third party on every decentralized server with more than two users), and hope you don't grow enough to get hacked by nation state actors or criminals.

"Freedom to choose which apps to use - while still having the freedom to talk to anyone you like. Freedom to connect your own functionality - bots, bridges, integrations etc"

A nice idea, but everyone needs to have same features for it to work, so what you get is differences in UI, implementation language, and platform support. What matters most here is the programming language: Matrix client written in Rust is more secure that one written in C. But unless everyone uses the Rust version, the group chat is as secure as the weakest link. Same goes with bridges. You'll never have security because of this guy who likes to re-live their youth through irssi: https://xkcd.com/1782/

Also, what happens when Facebook implements their own Matrix client that steals your metadata from the endpoint, and what happens when they start bundling their app on every Samsung smartphone? Perhaps it's not your idealistic Riot client that's the problem, perhaps it's the bundled spyware on every peers' device used by people who just, don't care. I'm not saying Signal fixes the problem of user laziness, I'm saying it's better to know what's on the receiving end.

"Freedom to select which identifiers (if any) to use to register your account."

Which is kind of pointless considering the IP-address still leaks to the server by default. And the UUID means all your metadata can be tied together. The social graph is revealed to the server so unless everyone keeps rolling their IDs and exchanging them over some other channel, it's pretty much impossible to hide metadata from a malicious server running statistical analysis. Even if you're not malicious, there's no way to know if your server has been compromised. Or, if you somehow can harden your server against the NSAs of this world, please, go work for the Freedom of The Press Foundation or something.

"Freedom to extend the protocol."

When the protocol fails to mandate BASIC security features like E2EE, it's kind of pointless to talk about the possibilities of extendability. There's always going to be maintainers and theyneed to prioritize, so there's always going to be someone who decides whether something will be implemented by them. Signal doesn't forbid pull-requests if you want something done. The nice thing is, it's at least six times faster to do it for Signal.

"Freedom to write your own client, or build whole new as-yet-unimagined systems on top."

So it's the freedom of the developer we're talking about. Reminds me of BSD vs GPL (BSD says developer has freedom to fuck over users with proprietary fork, GPL says user has right to not be abused like that, and that developers have the obligation to not do that). It's the rights of the users that matter. That is, human rights. You can merge as-yet-unimagined systems to Signal. You might face initial criticism because it needs to be secure by default. But it's not like Moxie will show you the finger for proposing something before it's discovered or announced. I have first hand experience with this: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/4171

"It’s true that if you’re writing a messaging app optimized for privacy at any cost, Moxie’s approach is one way to do it."

If you consider privacy is a human right, developer freedom isn't, it's easier to see who has their priorities in order.

"you end up thoroughly putting all your eggs in one basket, trusting past, present & future Signal to retain its values, stay up and somehow dodge compromise & censorship… despite probably being the single highest value attack target on the ‘net."

So which one is easier to subvert, community of experts constantly under scrutiny by peer experts trying desperately to make a name for themselves, or open work group on protocol that still isn't secure by default, and that is much more susceptible to stagnation via bike-shedding and mission hijacking. OpenPGP work group still hasn't agreed on v5 fingerprint, the SHAppening happened five years ago. I'm going to have to disagree and say I don't have faith in unnecessarily large organizations.

I'm just going to say this FUD is worth being pointed out, but that it's not worthy of dissection.

"We owe the entire success of the Internet (let alone the Web) to openness, interoperability and decentralization."

A thought that was denounced in the 36c3 talk whether you watched the stream or not.

"To declare that openness, interoperability and decentralization is ‘too hard’ and not worth the effort when building a messaging solution is to throw away all the potential of the vibrancy, creativity and innovation that comes from an open network"

The worth was not addressed by this writing in any way, and the practical problems that far outweigh the idealistic goals were discussed by Moxie because what matters is the human rights to privacy of the users of the tool, not whether the infrastructure is based on idealistic ideas that don't offer tangible security benefits in practice.

Like Moxie said, prove that decentralization works by doing the bare necessities of implementing E2EE, then it's worth discussing whether the idealism part matters, and if decentralization has something useful to offer.

"Sure, you may end up with a super-private messaging app - but one that starts to smell alarmingly like a walled garden like Facebook’s Internet.org initiative, or an AOL keyword, or Google’s AMP. "

The negative connotations of these companies are about lack of respecting privacy. It's really weird to essentially say "you end up with super private app that shares other commonalities with privacy invading companies". Walled garden isn't ideal, but for now, it's more secure and that's what matters more to users.

"So, we continue to gladly take up Moxie’s challenge to prove him wrong - to show that it’s both possible and imperative to create an open decentralized messaging platform which (if you use reputable apps and servers) can be as secure and metadata-protecting as Signal…"

That's the attitude we need. Now go out there and use your preferred methods to make the idealistic protocol secure by default! Just don't expect me or anyone else to recommend its use before that happens.

"and indeed more so, given you can run your server off the grid, and don’t need to register with a phone number"

Will you be getting rid of IP-address leak to servers too? Quick jabs in closing notes that aren't thought out too well are not very nice.

"and in future may not even need a server at all."

Also maybe reconsider ending your refutal of criticism towards decentralized architecture by hinting that users should look towards upcoming P2P architecture.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, but remote attestation is in fact exactly what they're doing with their contact discovery: https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/

SGX is crypto that is already exploited and broken, it offers no real use in this context. Oh, and I forgot, you do need to essentially blindly trust Intel.

I don't really care and think this is all a red herring, since every other mainstream messenger doesn't protect this information at all, but instead stores it in plaintext databases.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#124
post #31

One frustrating thing about Moxie's original post is that Signal derives huge amounts of value by piggybacking on an existing distributed federated network: the phone system. If phone numbers weren't an existing working identifiers that people had regardless of what OS, carrier, or messaging app, Signal as designed wouldn't work. People should think harder about how to replicate that experience, instead of how to app…

>One frustrating thing about Moxie's original post is that Signal derives huge amounts of value by piggybacking on an existing distributed federated network: the phone system. If phone numbers weren't an existing working identifiers that people had regardless of what OS oh my sweet summer child. I hop countries and switch phones every few years. This entire assumption that my identity is tied to a phone number which…

Snipped out of context from: https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/

"However, over the past six years, we’ve also seen the user cost of switching between centralized communication services reduced substantially, particularly given the tendency towards addressing with user-owned identifiers like phone numbers."

Does he really believe that phone numbers are user-owned? My phone carrier owns my number. If I'm lucky, I might be able to take it to a new carrier. It's far more likely that I'd drop the number in favor of one in the area code in which I actually live, however.

I own my own domain, and I self-host my own email. I'm not likely to change it for geographical reasons. It has a much stronger tie to me than some string of digits used by an analog voice network from the last century.

The other user cost of switching between centralized services is network effects. If you want to switch from ICQ to AIM, you need to get all your friends to join you.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#125
post #23
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://signal.org/blog/license-update/

Aha, yeah: https://github.com/signalapp/curve25519-java/issues/5

GPL doesn't prevent you from using it on mobile devices, it prevents you from making changes to his code proprietary. You seem to just want to release proprietary software. You should say that out loud if so!

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#126

My biggest problem with messaging applications as a whole is that I need so many of them. I have a few contacts who are reachable with Signal, a few more who are reachable on Hangouts or whatever Google is calling its latest thing, and a few more who are reachable with Skype. That's three programs, to communicate with three different subsets of people. I'm sure if I used Facebook Messenger and Whatsapp, I'd have two…

> XMPP was supposed to solve all those problems when it came out

That's also what Matrix said it would solve when it started. Except now it's yet another protocol with its own chatrooms that are not reachable from any other protocol by default (even rooms on matrix.org); and bridges are at best in "beta" (except the Telegram bridge, which is "late beta"): https://matrix.org/bridges/

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#127

I think the timing makes Moxie's point very well without him saying a thing. All these years later Matrix only has... The ambition to some day try to offer the core privacy features Signal already delivered back then. Some of the most basic stuff is, you believe, almost kinda sorta done. This is, to be clear, much better than just sitting back insisting you were right but not lifting a finger. But for an actual user…

>All these years later Matrix only has... The ambition to some day try to offer the core privacy features Signal already delivered back then. E2E on Matrix works, plus key verification is easier than on Signal. Managing metadata is hard, but my Matrix homeserver doesn't have my phone number (unlike Signal) and does not require Google Cloud Messaging. I can even run it on a PinePhone or Pocket CHIP! >But for an actual…

...that wasn't Signal leaking data, though, and unlike Twitter, which until last week allowed anyone to mass-check phone numbers, Signal doesn't publicly broadcast your number.

I don't use Signal, and won't as long as they force a phone number, but at least be accurate.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#128

My biggest problem with messaging applications as a whole is that I need so many of them. I have a few contacts who are reachable with Signal, a few more who are reachable on Hangouts or whatever Google is calling its latest thing, and a few more who are reachable with Skype. That's three programs, to communicate with three different subsets of people. I'm sure if I used Facebook Messenger and Whatsapp, I'd have two…

And those are the reasons I use phone calls, sms and email. It is more than enough to keep contacts and to arange where you will meet in-person. For distant relations I prefer email, I always loved a well formed letter where sender has actually put some thought into it.

Yeah, I dont have 999 friends but those 10 good friends is all I need. And they DO call, sms, email me. For everyone else I dont care.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#129
post #116
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>anything designed or sold for incorporation into a dwelling. I'd be willing to make the argument that a program integrated into a previously owned computing device is a totally valid case for this clause to trigger under. Your computer is part of, and is increasingly integrated into your dwelling. The program being pulled down is just another module for it.

It wouldn't matter. Two things are required to trigger the clause. 1. The GPLv3 object code has to be conveyed "in, or with, or specifically for use in, a User Product", and 2. This must occur "as part of a transaction in which the right of possession and use of the User Product is transferred to the recipient". The "User Product" in your argument is still the computer, and so unless you are buying the computer itsel…

> What I'm puzzled by is what about things that are neither personal property used "for personal, family, or household purposes" nor for incorporation into dwelling?

Company cars and phones?

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#130
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the representative experience for most consumers/users. Most people do have a phone number, though, so it's easy enough to bootstrap with. I might not agree with the phone number thing, but I recognize the tradeoff being made and am willing to begrudgingly accept that for right now, Signal/Moxie are probably making the right call. It's not like they're not moving to fix it anyway. Also, unless I misunderst…

> You realistically can't use Signal without an Apple ID I do, because I got it and signed up for an account on my Android phone... Okay, I realize what you're getting at here, but it seriously irks me when people talk as if Apple was the only ecosystem, or even the most popular ecosystem, when it is neither. I probably don't even need a Google Play Store account if I can find an unmodified APK that's signed by OWS.

   curl https://updates.signal.org/android/latest.json |grep -o "http[^\"]*"
https://updates.signal.org/android/Signal-website-universal-...

Source: https://signal.org/android/apk/

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